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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#501

Post by scarface74 »

cromwellian wrote: post #470
Terretta wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP claimed iOS was "free". Can't be both free, and the phone only costs its parts. GP also said to cover cost of app store in the phone, despite only costing its parts. I consider iOS to be one of the iPhone's parts. I don't understand why machinery engineered from metal is so different from that engineered from bits, that I must consider them two products instead of one. Metal, glass, silicon, bits: one PDA applianc…

This is economics. The price of a product in a competitive market tends to its marginal cost -- the cost to produce one additional unit. The marginal cost of an iPhone is $450 in parts and labor. The R&D costs are fixed costs, not marginal costs, they don't vary whether you sell 1 million iPhones or 10 million iPhones. Most of iOS's costs are fixed. Even if you amortize the cost of it across the number of phones sold…

This obviously comes from a misunderstanding of economics. The price of a good is what people are willing to pay for it. Why are people willing to pay more for Nike’s than Converse? There are literally hundreds of Android phones, yet people are willing to pay more for iPhones.

People have been paying a premium for Apple’s goods for forty years. Instead of complaining about the evilness of Apple, maybe the problem is the incompetence of the rest of the market to make something compelling.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#502

Post by danShumway »

ghostwriter wrote: post #480
danShumway wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are more than two platforms out there Such as? If I'm making a mobile game, what other phones can I realistically target other than Android and iPhone? You don't really think that the Librem 5 is a real competitor right now in this space, do you? > because mere quantity of stuff out there is never a justification for taking it over All of US antitrust law is based on the idea that the quantity of providers in…

> Such as? If I'm making a mobile game, what other phones can I realistically target other than Android and iPhone? You don't really think that the Librem 5 is a real competitor right now in this space, do you? Any phone that runs WebGL. Inconvenient? Tough life, why does Apple have to do anything about it for you? > All of US antitrust law is based on the idea that the quantity of providers in a market matters. US a…

> Inconvenient

Impossible. There's a difference.

There are no phones on the market where the web is a comparable platform to native mobile apps. There could be in a better world, but there aren't in this world. Talk to me in a couple of years when we have native storage ironed out and maybe that'll be different. Or talk to me in 5-10 years when Librem 5 has its issues worked out, and maybe things will be different then.

> why does Apple have to do anything about it for you?

It doesn't, not unless Apple enjoys the benefit of extensive government regulations that allow it to block and sue the competitors that do want to do something about it for me. Regulations like, for example, the DMCA.

Live by the government, die by the government. Companies don't get to pretend to be free-market Capitalists only when it's convenient for them.

> Everything you mentioned here is a product of federal legislature, yet you want to blame an economic player

No, I just want consistency. I want the government to get in the way or to get out of the way.

It is infeasible to get rid of antitrust unless we're also going to also get rid of the regulation and interference that keeps the market from working the way it was intended.

Getting rid of the regulations that protect us from the current smartphone duopoly while keeping the regulations that caused the smartphone duopoly isn't free market Capitalism, it's Feudalism. I don't have patience for an argument that it's a bridge too far for the government to stop Apple from exploiting developers/consumers, but perfectly fine for Apple to use the government to reinforce their market position.

I'm sympathetic to anti-regulation arguments and the people who make them, but I am not sympathetic to pro-monopoly arguments.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#503

Post by scarface74 »

TACIXAT wrote: post #221
vageli wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That feels like using an existing monopoly (actually a duopoly w/ google's similar practices) to force developers to purchase products they don't want. Hey didn't want to accept payments via apple, but Apple's market power and decisions were focused on forcing them to. In order to sell goods in a place like Walmart, a manufacturer is subject to onerous terms. Why is the app store different than a retailer limiting…

I don't own a Walmart. I do own a phone. I'm largely restricted with what I can do on my phone.

Then why did you buy that phone knowing you had dozens of other alternatives?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#504

Post by kevingadd »

scarface74 wrote: post #491
sjy wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! This is explained right at the beginning of the article: > the question as to what is anticompetitive and what is simply good business changes as a business scales. A small business can generally be as anticompetitive as it wants to be, while a much larger business is much more constrained in how anticompetitively it can act The word “monopolize” is used in a specialised way in antitrust; it doesn’t encompass eve…

Can I buy and sell virtual items in Fortnite without giving Epic a cut?

Selling virtual items is not especially common due to the exposure it creates to fraud and abuse. Fortnite doesn't allow selling or trading - games that do like Team Fortress 2 and Counter-strike Go are home to lots of scammers who try to trick teens and other uninformed players into giving away their valuable loot :(

Who are you going to buy from without giving Epic a cut? They're the only ones offering Fortnite items.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#505

Post by scarface74 »

kelnos wrote: post #307
ericmay wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps. > Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want tha…

If you don’t own an iPhone, then why do you care what Apple does?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#506

Post by cwyers »

Part of the problem I have with the notion that Apple (and Google) need such tight control over their app stores is that they do such a bad job of it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/07/technology/more-iphone-fa... https://blog.trendmicro.com/trendlabs-security-intelligence/... https://www.wired.com/story/apple-app-store-malware-click-fr... https://crappygames.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:IOS_Games

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#507

Post by kevingadd »

darkwizard42 wrote: post #162
tc wrote: post #41

Here's the thing. Even if you're OK with Apple (or whoever) controlling what you can run on your computers, this is a centralization of power that will be co-opted. Let's say that Australia wants to ban consumer encryption. This would currently be difficult to enforce for PC software. But on mobile, this is easy. Just make Apple and Google enforce it! Make them ban such apps from their stores. Now you've achieved per…

I don't think you are using two points that are similar enough. If Australia bans encryption, you as a consumer who resides in Australia has a high switching cost (moving, new job, residence, etc.) and thus the consumer loses out. If Apple starts to use that power badly... you can switch to a number of competitor feature phones with largely the same feature and app capabilities (Android being the most obvious) In a m…

"you can switch to a number of competitor feature phones with largely the same feature and app capabilities"

How much does that cost? How does it work if the apps you rely on are iOS only? How do I transfer my app and subscription purchases to my new Android phone?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#508

Post by scarface74 »

sjy wrote: post #460
ghostwriter wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But then this is competitive pressure for Apple to charge lower fees and allow apps to handle payments themselves, at which point the app would be back in Apple's store because the customer prefers to buy it from there. Everyone benefits (except Apple). No it isn't. The next moment Apple significantly lowers its comission, the same people will start whining about Apple "dumping the market" "to sink its competitors"…

If you’re a seemingly unstoppable corporate juggernaut, you’ll make enemies who think (rightly or wrongly) that your business practices are unfair, and they may successfully sue you using the laws intended to stop huge companies from engaging in unfair business practices. I’m not sure what your point is here. That antitrust litigation is futile or counterproductive? The threat of it seems to be having positive effect…

Why is Apple unstoppable? Why can’t Google do better in the premium market? Why did Microsoft fail with a decade head start?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#509

Post by rched »

kelnos wrote: post #361
rched wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't I've been seeing this argument a lot and it makes the assumption that allowing alternative app stores has no impact on people who choose not to use them. I don't think this is true. An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to c…

> An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. This is literally the point of allowing healthy competition. If Apple wants these games on their app store, they should offer terms that are competitive with the hypothetical third-party app stores.

I’m 100% for Apple being pressured to have lower fees but less stoked about Apple being pressured to allow any payment processor. The root of my concern, I think, is that what is good for developers is not always what is good for users and alternative app stores will compete by doing what is good for developers at the expense of users.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#510

Post by LexGray »

colinmhayes wrote: post #449
siruncledrew wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic is not putting up some legal crusade for the “little guy” competitors. Epic is putting up a fight for Epic. It all comes down to money. If Epic was running their own platform, and 3rd parties didn’t want to abide by their rules, then Epic would give those 3rd parties the finger and tell them to F-off the same as Apple. Each is trying to grab as much profit as they can while running into the issue of other hands…

You're right, but you're not. Yes, Epic is trying to make money. But if Epic is allowed to open their own store it would be very good for small developers. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Somehow Facebook running a market on iOS marketplace where they funnel every click to their preferred apps with their own in-app payments and frameworks mandated doesn't sound like a developer win to me. It may not much of a user win if Epic installs DRM into your phone with cool features like an always on audio chat.
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