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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#451

Post by antaviana »

I think I am with Apple for this one.

It has always been a 30% cut, even when it launched.

Apple did not raise the cut when the iOS app market got bigger.

Apple pricing is not cost-based, it is value-based.

Why should their pricing be cost-based? Why should they try to do an Amazon by sucking all the air in the room?

If that value-based pricing strategy translates into billions earned, great for Apple.

It could also have translated into billions lost, if their app store had turned into a ghost town. I’m sure it happened to other platforms.

I can care less if Apple has high or low costs to maintain their platform. That’s their problem, not mine. If I buy something it is because I want it at that price. If the price point is above my perceived value, I will not buy and both Apple and Epic will lose revenue but again, that’s their problem.

Epic has the option not to use IAPs if that sales model is not profitable for them at any price point.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#452

Post by naikrovek »

pests wrote: post #444
misnome wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but that's outside of Fortnite. Inside Fortnite they have a monopoly on selling items, right?

The core point your parent was trying to make is that Fortnite is not an open market. No one but Epic provides goods to the Epic store. Apple allowing third party developers is the distinction being made.

Yes, thank you.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#453

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

Terretta wrote: post #441
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $450 is the marginal cost of an iPhone. That's typically the normal number cited for the "manufacturing cost" of a product, regardless of the level of R&D and marketing that goes into it.

GP claimed iOS was "free". Can't be both free, and the phone only costs its parts. GP also said to cover cost of app store in the phone, despite only costing its parts. I consider iOS to be one of the iPhone's parts. I don't understand why machinery engineered from metal is so different from that engineered from bits, that I must consider them two products instead of one. Metal, glass, silicon, bits: one PDA applianc…

All good. But iOS has a marginal cost of essentially zero. So its presence (or absence) has effectively no impact on the marginal cost of an iPhone.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#454

Post by bluedevil2k »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #249
bluedevil2k wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple created this entire market Which market? 3rd party software on a computing device? Sorry, that was dozens of years prior. Packaged apps on a mobile device? Sorry, I had those on my Treo in 2001. They haven’t really created any market, they just created a software monopoly on their hardware using existing ideas.

Aside from trying to be smug, I'm not sure the point of this comment. No one cares that a small handful of people owned a Treo in 2001. It wasn't relevant then and it isn't now. In any case, if it isn't a market, then there is no case here, so not sure what your comment means for you. > They haven’t really created any market, they just created a software monopoly on their hardware using existing ideas. The monopoly w…

Treo’s were extremely relevant! It was a device that early adopters loved and inspired Apple to make the iPhone which “crossed the chasm” into the mainstream. (Read “Crossing the Chasm” to learn about early tech and its influence)

There are no competitors on the iPhone. The iPhone isn’t the anti-competitive issue, the App Store is! No one has a market share but Apple on that front.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#455

Post by colinmhayes »

ericmay wrote: post #280
danShumway wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

This take is absolutely insane. Competition has never hurt consumers. There is no downside to more app stores, only huge upsides in the reduced fees.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#456

Post by colinmhayes »

jdminhbg wrote: post #328
kelnos wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps. > Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want tha…

> Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want that curation, you still get it. Apple users care because if non-App Store distribution methods are banned, then developers are forced to go through Apple's process to get access to them. You can see complaints around this thread about how…

Epic's store has been incredible for PC gaming. Amazing for developers and quite good for consumers too. Taking down steam is the best thing to happen this decade.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#457

Post by IncRnd »

rched wrote: post #337
kelnos wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps. > Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want tha…

> If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't I've been seeing this argument a lot and it makes the assumption that allowing alternative app stores has no impact on people who choose not to use them. I don't think this is true. An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to c…

Along those lines, you are no longer allowed to browse or post anywhere outside of HN, since your keyboard is only authorized for HN browsing and posting. Those other web-sites are insecure and HN has decided that you can no longer visit other websites.

Furthermore, Walmart has placed restrictions on all keyboards purchased from their stores. All online purchases made using their keyboards will now funnel 30% of the payment to Walmart.

Thank you for your business and absolute trust in our secure business model that we operate for your benefit.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#458

Post by hinkley »

danShumway wrote: post #272
enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

I'm not at all enthused about Epic being one of those stores, but being able to download from Steam sure would be nice.

If you were trying to remove the monopoly, I'd think you should start there, and then expand to other people who can prove they have their shit together. Epic let someone else use my email address to sign up for an account (and they only allow one account per email). That is serious amateur-hour territory. When they have figured out how to tie their own shoes we can talk about whether they should be in the running.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#459

Post by jimmydorry »

colinmhayes wrote: post #449
siruncledrew wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic is not putting up some legal crusade for the “little guy” competitors. Epic is putting up a fight for Epic. It all comes down to money. If Epic was running their own platform, and 3rd parties didn’t want to abide by their rules, then Epic would give those 3rd parties the finger and tell them to F-off the same as Apple. Each is trying to grab as much profit as they can while running into the issue of other hands…

You're right, but you're not. Yes, Epic is trying to make money. But if Epic is allowed to open their own store it would be very good for small developers. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

If they manage to land their store on iOS, expect them to do the same anti-competitive things they did in the PC market... paying studios to exclusively put their games on the Epic Store only. Even games fund raised by communities, and games already announced to be launching on other platforms.

I don't see that as much of a win.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#460

Post by sjy »

ghostwriter wrote: post #406
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An app developer may decide to only list their app on an alternative store because they pay lower fees and they can handle payments themselves. As a user you now need to choose between not using the app or giving your credit card information to the app developer you may not trust. But then this is competitive pressure for Apple to charge lower fees and allow apps to handle payments themselves, at which point the ap…

> But then this is competitive pressure for Apple to charge lower fees and allow apps to handle payments themselves, at which point the app would be back in Apple's store because the customer prefers to buy it from there. Everyone benefits (except Apple). No it isn't. The next moment Apple significantly lowers its comission, the same people will start whining about Apple "dumping the market" "to sink its competitors"…

If you’re a seemingly unstoppable corporate juggernaut, you’ll make enemies who think (rightly or wrongly) that your business practices are unfair, and they may successfully sue you using the laws intended to stop huge companies from engaging in unfair business practices.

I’m not sure what your point is here. That antitrust litigation is futile or counterproductive? The threat of it seems to be having positive effects already, looking at the front page of HN: https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/17/apple-expands-its-independ...

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