Apple, Epic, and the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#161

Post by 627467 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

> My preferred outcome would see Apple maintaining its control of app installation. I treasure and depend on the openness of PCs and Macs, but I am also relieved that the iPhone is so dependable for those less technically savvy than me.

I think people overestimate the importance/benefit of such level of control over instalation of apps. Yes, Wintel was plagued by malware viruses but Mac/Linux/Unix wasn't. I don't think the benefit (protecting users from threats) outweighs the drawbacks (not having control of device, not allowing ecosystem of paid thinkerers to help Muggles personalize their devices) of having such closed approach.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#162

Post by darkwizard42 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

tc wrote: post #41

Here's the thing. Even if you're OK with Apple (or whoever) controlling what you can run on your computers, this is a centralization of power that will be co-opted. Let's say that Australia wants to ban consumer encryption. This would currently be difficult to enforce for PC software. But on mobile, this is easy. Just make Apple and Google enforce it! Make them ban such apps from their stores. Now you've achieved per…

I don't think you are using two points that are similar enough.

If Australia bans encryption, you as a consumer who resides in Australia has a high switching cost (moving, new job, residence, etc.) and thus the consumer loses out.

If Apple starts to use that power badly... you can switch to a number of competitor feature phones with largely the same feature and app capabilities (Android being the most obvious)

In a market with 2+ competitors and where its low switching costs (moving contacts is quite easy these days, not a lot of deep 2-year contracts for phones/providers) this point doesn't hold true

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#163

Post by spanhandler » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

romanoderoma wrote: post #90

spanhandler wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raises hand . I don't wanna have to worry about stupid computer shit when I'm just trying to use my iPad or iPhone as a tool to accomplish something else. Drawing, playing music, reading, writing, edutainment for the kids, very occasionally a game. Maybe the odd SSH session. If I decide I want some software to help me with any of those things I just want it to be in the App Store, and I just want it to use the App St…

That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't. You don't lose anything if you don't want to. You should have to keep doing what you already do.

> That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't.

Then buy any other general computing product on the market. I'd be more sympathetic to this concern if Android didn't exist. Meanwhile it does, and the users who picked Apple did it because they don't care about this, they don't care very much about this, or because they actively want the App Store restrictions and the ecosystem that they create.

> You don't lose anything if you don't want to.

I very well might, though. Changes to rules change how actors behave in a system. The way software developers and publishers behave on iOS could change in ways that I don't like if they're able to viably distribute software outside the App Store. That might be OK, except forcing developers and publishers to follow the App Store rules is part of the appeal of the devices. If that'd been a major sticking point for me, I could have bought Android.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#164

Post by badsectoracula » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

romanoderoma wrote: post #131

badsectoracula wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, that is about iPad, so Apple's walled garden didn't help. And kids shouldn't be able to buy things with their parents' cards, which is something completely unrelated to a platform being open or not.

The problem is that once you go down the streets dressed as a Batman to do justice, you'll find a villian dressed as a penguin Apple store is not more secure because it's a walled garden, people will always find other ways to scam other people Apple could just make sideload possible declining responsibility It doesn't sound very hard to me, for a company like Apple which employ some of the best talents in the World

Right but i do not think it is really about Apple having responsibility - it is about Apple being in control.

For example, see how Apple is in total control on when iOS devices are obsolete by requiring some minimum version. You can't keep your device usable and useful by installing a program that supports it from another source, you can only install it from Apple and Apple's requirements limit the iOS versions you can target.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#165

Post by emsy » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

pier25 wrote: post #92

Essentially, it's a win-win for Epic. If they win the lawsuit they will (probably) be able to have more control over how they want to distribute their iOS apps. If they lose, they won't have to deal with iOS anymore. Free players cost money too, and it's possible iOS is not so interesting to Epic with the %30 Apple cut. Also, since their business model is based on microtransactions, most of their revenue must come fr…

They made several million dollars daily. I think you severely underestimate the gaming market.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#166

Post by darkwizard42 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

farisjarrah wrote: post #116

darkwizard42 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me for one. I don't want to deal with several different terms of service, different ways of payment, lack of clarity on if an app is trustworthy or not. Apple is simple. I trust Apple to protect me and honestly based on the stories I read about Google's Play Store I feel more confident in Apple to do the right thing for consumers in the long run. Their incentive is aligned to my needs (good safe hardware that protect…

Is Apple's app store actually protecting you from anything, or do you just get the illusion that its protecting you? Although the situation has gotten much better the past couple years, its still not uncommon to find apps on the app store that charge like 10$ a month for some wallpapers or something of a similar nature. Furthermore, every few months there are new news articles coming out about how ""XYZ"" app is coll…

iOS is protecting me WAY more than Google Play store. I also read plenty about Apple being TOO strict on developers more than I read them being loose. (which sorry to the developers out there and definitely an area that apple can and should improve on)

Your point that some bad actors get through doesn't invalidate that Apple seems to be doing the best job of keeping the app store secure and consumer friendly.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#167

Post by 627467 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #6

In the spirit of this particular story, I'd like to ask HN the following question: Should closed hardware (that owns its entire stack) even be legal to sell? Yes, it's legal today but should we make it illegal? To try another example besides Apple iPhone, consider the $35000 Prima Cinema movie server to play 1st run movies at home on day of release: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22prima+cinema%22&source=ln... In m…

IMO, In most circumstances companies shouldn't need to document their products to the point that anyone can recreate them or modify them. But I don't think companies should actively create mechanisms (legal or otherwise) that prevent tinkerers.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#168

Post by ladberg » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

schoolornot wrote: post #65

orliesaurus wrote: post #14

Okay this is going to sound stupid but maybe someone else feels like me about it: I don't understand why Apple has to take such a big chunk from transactions of in-app purchases? Similarly Google. Why 30%? Why not 5%? That feels like it would be more honest. Is it just because "they can"?

Call a spade a spade. Not even the mafia extorted businesses for 30%. I'd argue an act of digital eminent domain is in order. Imagine being a store owner and having to give a 30% kickback to your landlord.

Most shops do have to pay somewhere around 15% of the revenue in rent. In addition to the flat cost, there are tons of commercial leases that charge a percentage of profits on top of that.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#169

Post by hesarenu » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #84

Epic has billions of dollars and a lot of customers. Microsoft has billions of dollars. There are a wide range of other parties that dislike Apple’s policies. Why don’t they build their own platform with their own exclusive and attractive content? I can see two options: 1. A full blown phone. Hard to do? Perhaps, but if Apple and a Google really aren’t competitive, then it should be possible to take customers away fr…

A Nintendo like gaming device with decent phone can be a viable alternative. Gaming i think generates a huge revenue for both iOS and Play Store. Those powerful cpu/gpu are simply getting wasted with current mobile games.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#170

Post by diffeomorphism » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #15

jasode wrote: post #6

In the spirit of this particular story, I'd like to ask HN the following question: Should closed hardware (that owns its entire stack) even be legal to sell? Yes, it's legal today but should we make it illegal? To try another example besides Apple iPhone, consider the $35000 Prima Cinema movie server to play 1st run movies at home on day of release: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22prima+cinema%22&source=ln... In m…

> Should closed hardware even be legal to sell? I don't see why not. If it's a problem, then either a competitor will emerge, or people won't purchase the product. If it's truly a bad business practice, it'll lose out in the end. Besides that I actually love the closed system of the iPhone + App Store, we can't just go around banning things anytime we think we might not like them. Every time I see this story it just…

> I don't see why not. If it's a problem, then either a competitor will emerge, or people won't purchase the product.

Aka "the invisible hand will fix it". We have been waiting quite a few years for this and it did not happen. Instead we got the complete opposite: a duopoly of android and iOS which nobody, not even Microsoft, can compete against. At this point, we have to acknowledge that simply waiting is not going to fix anything.