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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#421

Post by LexGray »

rndgermandude wrote: post #304
ericmay wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

>Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Then don't install them? But I fail to see why you (or Apple) should be in a position to tell other users what they can install or not. >You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and maintains. lolwat Honestly, I don't even know what th…

I think a good option here would be for Apple to sell jailbroken developer phones for say an additional 30% cut up front and a nice DEV brand on the back for bragging rights. The additional fee hurdle would discourage those who just want a cheap way to get paid software and whatever additional expenses from helping with malware.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#422

Post by three_seagrass »

misnome wrote: post #384
naikrovek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

> Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. Epic has a monopoly on selling items inside Fortnite. The problem is that as soon as you allow narrowing your definition of words to whatever supports your argument, then they become meaningless.

Players don't pay $500 just to play fortnite.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#423

Post by cycloptic »

MR4D wrote: post #395
cycloptic wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it’s just a pain in the butt masquerading as “choice”. It's not when they actually have to compete on price. Then you pick the one which offers you the lowest price for what you're looking for.

So when a friend of yours wants to message you and you don’t have the same app, what happens? Both apps are free. Now you have to download another App Store to download the messaging app. Price has no bearing here whatsoever.

>So when a friend of yours wants to message you and you don’t have the same app, what happens?

I tell the friend to call, text or email me. Price doesn't have any bearing because the market on messaging apps has bottomed out, in part due to Apple's app store policies.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#424

Post by three_seagrass »

acomjean wrote: post #396
myhf wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

V-bucks should be banned completely, along with all other illegal gambling.

I don't follow. The game is free, "V-bucks" you buy, I think you just get character/weapon skins that aren't required. I don't love the setup, but since kids are hanging out on fortnite having it free lets everyone who wants into that world.

I think they're referring to swapping in funny money to obfuscate customer ability to estimate the costs.

It's similar to how slot machines require tokens, but I don't think that's quite gambling. The gambling part comes in with loot boxes, where you're essentially paying to roll the dice to get something of value.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#425

Post by Jonnax »

myhf wrote: post #413
atom-morgan wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike CS:GO, Fortnite skins aren't gambling.

It takes work to implement an ingame premium currency. The only reason to perform that work is because some business person thinks they have discovered a new way to claim that what they are doing "isn't gambling."

It's a currency. There's no lootboxes. There's premium items you buy with that currency.

A microtransaction isn't gambling by default.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#426

Post by projektfu »

I think it’s absurd that you can neither buy a kindle book from the iOS kindle app nor the Amazon app. How user unfriendly!

And yet, Apple runs their own digitsl bookstore... since there’s no way to remove 30% revenue from apple’s own venture, they’re using a monopoly position to monopolize another market.

Oh, but Apple isn’t a monopoly because there’s Android.

Why did we think Microsoft was a monopoly? You could always buy a Mac and avoid the MS tax. But in the end the courts decided that MS was a monopoly unfairly restraining trade. We’ll have to see how this turns out. But by not allowing other app stores, Apple has put themselves at risk here.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#427

Post by naikrovek »

misnome wrote: post #384
naikrovek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

> Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. Epic has a monopoly on selling items inside Fortnite. The problem is that as soon as you allow narrowing your definition of words to whatever supports your argument, then they become meaningless.

> Epic has a monopoly on selling items inside Fortnite.

3rd party artists can't create anything that can be used inside Fortnite, neither inside the v-bucks store nor outside of it. There's no 3rd party "market" at all.

Apple has a market where third parties can market their apps. Apple requires a cut of all purchases made through that store, which alone is not monopolistic. Apple also requires that you sell your iOS app and any iOS in-app purchases only in their marketplace. That's the monopolistic part.

No one can create 3rd party items for Fortnite at all, so there is no monopoly on where 3rd party items for Fortnite are sold.

It's not even illegal to have a monopoly; it's illegal to use your monopoly powers to keep other parties from competing, and that's exactly what Apple has done.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#428

Post by siruncledrew »

naikrovek wrote: post #373
bttrfl wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following your logic, Fortnite's add-ons should clearly be free since the cost to make and sell them is minuscule in comparison to 400M Epic made in April alone [0]. [0] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s...

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

Epic is not putting up some legal crusade for the “little guy” competitors. Epic is putting up a fight for Epic.

It all comes down to money.

If Epic was running their own platform, and 3rd parties didn’t want to abide by their rules, then Epic would give those 3rd parties the finger and tell them to F-off the same as Apple.

Each is trying to grab as much profit as they can while running into the issue of other hands grabbing from the same basket.

The classic case of one’s greed versus another’s desire to be greedy.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#429

Post by enragedcacti »

ghostwriter wrote: post #416
enragedcacti wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If enough users agree with the parent comment that the app store is the best way get software then companies can weigh that user base against the 30% cut. Why should we force the users who don't like the App Store (or want apps that are incompatible with Apple's business model) to suffer on behalf of the users who don't?

Nobody forces anyone into interaction with Apple ecosystem. People want to get onto App Store because they know they can benefit from it, financially big. And they subscribe voluntarily by the most fair means of it, by trading their money in exchange for the service under the rules that are mentioned prior the transaction takes place.

By omitting details and framing each transaction as an isolated incident, you can make almost any monopoly or anti-consumer practice sound like just another business.

Nobody forces anyone into interaction with Carnegie Steel. People want to use their steel because they know they can benefit from it, financially big. And they purchase it voluntarily by the most fair means of it, by trading their money in exchange for the steel under the rules that are mentioned prior the transaction takes place.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#430

Post by three_seagrass »

ericmay wrote: post #342
Slartie wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right, and the rest of us don't want that Please stop speaking for others. I would certainly like to have the ability to install other sources for apps. Since I am part of "the rest of us", for any kind of "us" that came to my mind while reading your posting ("iPhone users" or "Apple customers" or "HN readers"), your statement is patently false. > That's not what I want on my iPhone. Then don't install additional s…

> Please stop speaking for others. Same to you and the GP here. And last I checked there aren’t a lot of customers really complaining about the App Store. It’s just big companies who, although they could have done this years ago, are now going against Apple’s customer protection because it degrades their crappy business practices. > Then don’t install additional stores Then buy a different phone? I want any app that…

A world where you have to buy a different phone just to use a different app store sounds pretty terrible.

It would be like having to buy a different laptop to use Amazon or Ebay.

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