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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#391

Post by harryf »

cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

This is a great picking apart of Apples justification but I think the issue that most irks everyone who’s not apologizing for Apple is where did this magic number 30% come from? Which market forces created it?

Here on HN most of us probably feel that product manager at Apple licked their finger, felt the wind and said “Yeah 30% seems about the most we can get away with”

And what irks even more is once Apple set the precedent, as their we’re no outcries Google was like “Let’s copy that!”. Let’s hope there was no collusion ...

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#392

Post by myhf »

bttrfl wrote: post #359
cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

Following your logic, Fortnite's add-ons should clearly be free since the cost to make and sell them is minuscule in comparison to 400M Epic made in April alone [0]. [0] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s...

V-bucks should be banned completely, along with all other illegal gambling.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#393

Post by seanwilson »

orliesaurus wrote: post #14

Okay this is going to sound stupid but maybe someone else feels like me about it: I don't understand why Apple has to take such a big chunk from transactions of in-app purchases? Similarly Google. Why 30%? Why not 5%? That feels like it would be more honest. Is it just because "they can"?

Don't they need to pay for and take care of country specific sales tax for you? If you sold directly to customers within the EU for example, you'd be liable to pay ~20% VAT for sales to most countries as far as I understand.

I don't know if 30% is fair but there's value for sure in making tax returns easier.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#394

Post by ghostwriter »

danShumway wrote: post #272
enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

We want a few more families to move into your house. We don't like the fact that you have a complete control over your home, and I think you're just frightened that other families could run your house better than you. And by the way, you've never invited us for a party, so it is extremely rude and unfair, and just shows your monopolistic stance, so we expect that other families will open the doors for anyone who needs a full access to your fridge and amenities. But don't be afraid, it's for the benefit of your neighbours that we all care about, and eventually you will get used to it too.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#395

Post by MR4D »

cycloptic wrote: post #390
MR4D wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha! That was pretty funny. :) But actually, there is a big difference - I can buy jeans anywhere. I can buy Levi jeans anywhere. If I had to go to Macy’s so that I could get a shirt (with no alternative), and then had to go to Nordstrom to get socks (with no alternative), and then..... then yeah, that would be crippling. There is a reason amazon and Walmart are so powerful - you can get anything in one stop. Bundling…

>it’s just a pain in the butt masquerading as “choice”. It's not when they actually have to compete on price. Then you pick the one which offers you the lowest price for what you're looking for.

So when a friend of yours wants to message you and you don’t have the same app, what happens?

Both apps are free. Now you have to download another App Store to download the messaging app.

Price has no bearing here whatsoever.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#396

Post by acomjean »

myhf wrote: post #392
bttrfl wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following your logic, Fortnite's add-ons should clearly be free since the cost to make and sell them is minuscule in comparison to 400M Epic made in April alone [0]. [0] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s...

V-bucks should be banned completely, along with all other illegal gambling.

I don't follow. The game is free, "V-bucks" you buy, I think you just get character/weapon skins that aren't required. I don't love the setup, but since kids are hanging out on fortnite having it free lets everyone who wants into that world.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#397

Post by MR4D »

jonny_eh wrote: post #353
MR4D wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We want multiple stores on iOS. No no no no no no!!!!!! It's this type of thinking that has caused me to have more freaking messaging and video apps on my phone so I can talk to everyone: Zoom, Skype, Meet, Meetings, Facetime, Messenger, Chime,...etc, etc. etc. NO. I ABSOLUTELY do not want that. Freaking nightmare. When that happens I ditch my iPhone and buy a flip phone. Seriously - stop the insanity. There is no…

> NO. I ABSOLUTELY do not want that. Freaking nightmare. That's a bit extreme. It's less of a nightmare, and more of an annoyance, that is paid in exchange for competition and innovation.

So, do you have a wallet with a dozen store credit cards or a wallet with a visa and/or MasterCard.

Imagine the former. No thanks.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#398

Post by Synaesthesia »

AcerbicZero wrote: post #383

Apple has a monopoly on making apple products to sell in apple stores? Quick call the feds! Seriously, the game Apple/Google/etc have been playing has been pretty anti-consumer at times, and downright unjust at other times. That said, Epic's (cough cough tencent's) only move here is to turn this dumpster into a dumpster fire and I don't see that as a particularly helpful direction to go in.

Int the US, I believe it accounts for about 70% of ponds, which is a lot. Globally not so much but still the biggest by revenue, and has all the elites.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#399

Post by LexGray »

misnome wrote: post #384
naikrovek wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not know how to follow logic. No one is saying that Epic are doing bad things in order to maintain their monopoly position. Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. People ARE saying that Apple are doing bad things to maintain their monopoly position, and others are justifying that by saying that "running a business is expensive" as if that justifies a monopoly or monopolistic actions.

> Epic doesn't have a monopoly on any market. Epic has a monopoly on selling items inside Fortnite. The problem is that as soon as you allow narrowing your definition of words to whatever supports your argument, then they become meaningless.

It would be amusing if the outcome of this is that Epic has to allow outside sources of content in their games instead of having it in a vBuck walled garden. I'm sure many developers would be happy get a part of a billion dollar a year market without paying Epic a cut. Imagine the irony of everyone running around Fortnite in Apple store branded loot.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#400

Post by ngold »

Spivak wrote: post #374
cromwellian wrote: post #352

"But Apple needs to fund the App Store. XCode, payment processing, reviewers, it all costs money". Yes, very little in comparison. Apple made $50 billion in revenue from the App Store in 2019. $50 BILLION. The data centers costs to serve up this are miniscule in comparison. Apple could build 50 datacenters PER YEAR EVERY YEAR for that revenue. Reviewers? A staff of 10,000 fulltime reviewers paid $200k per year would…

I don't really think it's about the number. I try not to think about these kinds of things in terms of what different companies "deserve." Apple can get away with demanding a 30% cut on their platform and they do so without much arm twisting. Nobody has to support macOS or iOS, and both developers and customers can completely ignore their existence. They'll be missing out on a lucrative customer base but that's true…

A purse is a purse, do you think some purses are so ahead of the curve that people pay thousands of dollars for one, or do you think they are buying a brand name despite the cost?
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