Apple, Epic, and the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#301

Post by FireBeyond » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #47

orliesaurus wrote: post #14

Okay this is going to sound stupid but maybe someone else feels like me about it: I don't understand why Apple has to take such a big chunk from transactions of in-app purchases? Similarly Google. Why 30%? Why not 5%? That feels like it would be more honest. Is it just because "they can"?

I assume their costs are just, Credit Card Fees, Infrastructure Fees (Bandwidth, Storage), Reviewers Salary. Not sure this adds up to 30%. I think the real reason is that when the Apple store was started, they looked around at the current prices for "software distribution". Retail was like 70%, and other app stores; for example the Danger Hiptop / T-mobile Sidekick charged 60% for their apps store, and the carriers w…

The MAS fees add up to 3% with presumably similar service costs.

30% is just rent-seeking opportunism. 3% shows something far closer to Apple's true costs for all this when faced with the fact that the Mac App Store is (for now) not required.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#302

Post by enra » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #272

enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

I think Apple clearly has their moat, but it's not the App Store. The whole stack, from hardware and OS, is their moat and one that makes them unique. Maybe I'm a fan, but the moat actually makes the user experience better. Epic's Store moat likely won't make anything better for anyone, expect for Epic.

I personally don't enjoy the experience of managing my PC games in 5 different libraries which all log out almost every day, need to be updated every week, push ads, newsletters, free stuff, crashes etc. So I'm not worried how Epic store would somehow overrun App Store, I'm worried how it would degrade the user experience. If people want to side load apps, they can use Android. But even on Android, most people are happy using the Google Play. As a consumer there isn't much benefit for multiple app stores, since every app store will be essentially exclusive to another, so don't really have more choice, just more app stores to manage and get the apps from.

My point was that Epic tries to make this some kind of crusade of freedom and developer rights, while their clear intention is actually get in to kingmaker position themselves that they can strong arm developers and competition to play by their rules (which they're already trying to do on the PC market). This fight is different from Hey's fight, who just wanted to have their app in the store and criticized the rules and way Apple manages the store. So I have very little sympathy for Epic in this and I hope the fail.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#303

Post by danShumway » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #296

danShumway wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

>you're frightened that another company might get control and... offer better terms than we have right now? While some people here might fall for this simple propaganda, I doubt the courts will. It is totally expected of Epic that they will at the same time make the claim about "freedom" and "choice" while signing exclusive deals so that customers are required to install the Epic store if they wish to play certain ga…

> while signing exclusive deals so that customers are required to install the Epic store if they wish to play certain games.

A surprising number of people on Hackernews don't understand how Apple Arcade works.

This isn't just specific to the mobile market. As an Open advocate and critic of DRM, it's been frustrating to watch gamers suddenly get very concerned about store choice and exclusives over the past few years, after over a decade of watching them dismiss the same arguments against Steam.

I'm not going to read too far into that inconsistency, because I feel like doing so would skirt HN policies. But I will say that if you're worried about exclusives, giving more platform control to users and developers weakens exclusives, it doesn't strengthen them.

> then let me play Fortnite on the App store thanks

Epic didn't take Fortnite off of the App store. If it's about your freedom, then talk to the people who did take it off.

> What sort of horror scenarios have happened with game installers on PCs and Android? Root kits. Spyware. Password capture. Camera activation.

If you're going to try and argue to me that the games PC market would be better if we had fewer stores, then I need to see some seriously better arguments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24153897

I do not believe reality in any way backs up the argument that giving users control over what code runs on their devices has hurt the games market or made it worse for consumers -- even with the increased risk of bad actors.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#304

Post by rndgermandude » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:26 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #280

danShumway wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

>Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules.

Then don't install them? But I fail to see why you (or Apple) should be in a position to tell other users what they can install or not.

>You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and maintains.

lolwat Honestly, I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

>You want to embed permanent location tracking in your apps, abuse user data, and not have to have your crappy practices out in the open when Apple shows the "nutrition scorecard" for your app.

This is a typical "think of the children" argument once more. Nobody forces you to install that tracking shit. You're free to not use apps that do that - e.g. get your apps from the Apple App Store, or make your own app if there is no such tracking free alternative. But those Apple App Store approved apps you seem to be so fond of... they do track you already ;)

>That's not what I want on my iPhone.

Then don't put use it on your iPhone.

>Yes that's exactly what I want. I want Apple to have complete control over the ecosystem. They've earned my complete trust.

Good for you. Nobody is stopping you from exercising your trust and only use Apple and/or Apple-approved software in the future.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#305

Post by mstolpm » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #272

enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

> For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS.

Who is „we“? I know a lot of users that don‘t want or don‘t feel a need for other app stores. Of course, most developers would be glad to get alternatives or make more money.

> You're worried that Epic's store is going to eventually overrun Apple's and then Epic will somehow prevent other stores from being installed on iOS devices?

Not the original poster, but I would be worried that alternate app stores would as well lead to even more apps not honoring the user rights, spying on Location all the time, selling and monetizing user data and pushing even more IAP crap. Epic isn‘t really known as the Robin Hood of user rights and promptly, Spotify and Facebook, two other big players with black spots on their vests, called for the same. I have a hard time believing that everything Epic wants is just beneficial for the users.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#306

Post by manuelabeledo » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

donarb wrote: post #233

zaksoup wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something I hadn't thought about until the article pointed it out. According to the first link in google ( https://www.braze.com/blog/in-app-purchase-stats/ ) the average iOS IAP in 2017 was $1.08. If you compare that to Square and Stripe's fee structure then the processing fees charged by the credit card processors is about 25%. This means Apple's taking for themselves much closer to a 5% cut which seems muc…

Apple provides a ton of services besides the credit card processing. - 24/7 worldwide availability, instant payment/app download - Easy re-install after deletion, you still own the app even if deleted - Region restriction - Separate app pricing by region - Revenues paid to developer from multiple region currencies without conversion fees - Tax calculation and collection - Customer refunds - User rankings and reviews…

Most of them are there either because local laws, or purely to benefit Apple, or both, e.g. region restriction helps Apple add content to their store, and circumvent local restrictions, if apply.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#307

Post by kelnos » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #280

danShumway wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps.

> Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules.

Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want that curation, you still get it.

> They've earned my complete trust.

This blind devotion to the Apple Way is baffling, especially considering how Apple-approved apps are not free of the tracking and user-data abuse you (correctly!) rail against.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#308

Post by askafriend » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

schoolornot wrote: post #65

orliesaurus wrote: post #14

Okay this is going to sound stupid but maybe someone else feels like me about it: I don't understand why Apple has to take such a big chunk from transactions of in-app purchases? Similarly Google. Why 30%? Why not 5%? That feels like it would be more honest. Is it just because "they can"?

Call a spade a spade. Not even the mafia extorted businesses for 30%. I'd argue an act of digital eminent domain is in order. Imagine being a store owner and having to give a 30% kickback to your landlord.

> Call a spade a spade. Not even the mafia extorted businesses for 30%.

What do you call Steam, Xbox, Nintendo, Best Buy, Game Stop, Playstation, Microsoft...

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#309

Post by MR4D » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:32 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #272

enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

> We want multiple stores on iOS.

No no no no no no!!!!!!

It's this type of thinking that has caused me to have more freaking messaging and video apps on my phone so I can talk to everyone: Zoom, Skype, Meet, Meetings, Facetime, Messenger, Chime,...etc, etc. etc.

NO. I ABSOLUTELY do not want that. Freaking nightmare.

When that happens I ditch my iPhone and buy a flip phone.

Seriously - stop the insanity. There is no "choice" when we need to have every alternative installed in order to do the things we need to do. That's not choice - it's insanity.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#310

Post by lowbloodsugar » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #303

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you're frightened that another company might get control and... offer better terms than we have right now? While some people here might fall for this simple propaganda, I doubt the courts will. It is totally expected of Epic that they will at the same time make the claim about "freedom" and "choice" while signing exclusive deals so that customers are required to install the Epic store if they wish to play certain ga…

> while signing exclusive deals so that customers are required to install the Epic store if they wish to play certain games. A surprising number of people on Hackernews don't understand how Apple Arcade works. This isn't just specific to the mobile market. As an Open advocate and critic of DRM, it's been frustrating to watch gamers suddenly get very concerned about store choice and exclusives over the past few years,…

>Epic didn't take Fortnite off of the App store. If it's about your freedom, then talk to the people who did take it off.

Lol. Ok. Thanks for sharing your opinion of us, once again.