Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#301

Post by quotha » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:59 PM UTC

woofie11 wrote: post #156

ArchOversight wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't retaliation though for Epic going on Twitter and being angry about the App Store practices, or the situation like Hey where the was a lot of press and negativity. Epic breached the terms of the agreement for their app, so their app was removed from the App Store. Other than needing to fix their app to no longer be in violation of the guidelines, they could have cured that breach of the contract. Instead Ep…

A one-sided agreement containing a retaliation clause, followed by exercising that clause, is retaliation. Say you're desperate and need water in a crisis, and I offer you some, but only if you sign an agreement which gives you water, but says I can punch you in the face whenever you say something I don't like. Say you say something I don't like, and I punch you in the face. Did I just retaliate? Or did the contract…

So any action what-so-ever in response to an action you claim is called retaliation? Fine, call it whatever you want, it is reality. Epic clearly picked this fight, let's see how it goes for them.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#302

Post by baddox » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:59 PM UTC

ayoisaiah wrote: post #281

baddox wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people I've seen commenting on this Epic vs. Apple debate seem to think that it's okay on game consoles but not okay on iPhones, which is just preposterous. At least you're consistent. But what about e-readers, GPS devices, car entertainment systems, etc.? Should all Turing-complete computing devices be forced to provide a way for the owner to run unsigned code?

The difference is that those other devices have a specific use. Smartphones are general purpose devices, so it's not the same at all

That's a bizarre argument. It seems to imply that Apple could avoid these allegations by either increasing or decreasing the restrictions they place on third-party developers.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#303

Post by theshrike79 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

nightski wrote: post #234

danudey wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Epic thinks that Apple's and Google's store conditions are onerous, just wait until they find out what it's like to ship a game on PS4 or XBox.

Actually shipping on Xbox one is quite simple and mostly free with the ID@Xbox program or the Creators program.

And if you slip stuff that’s against the rules on Xbox and sue Microsoft, they’ll just let you keep your accounts open and keep selling your applications?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#304

Post by erulabs » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

nwienert wrote: post #223

fatbird wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there are several stores in mobile country, and more again in platform country. Drawing the boundary of the market around iOS seems circular. "They're a monopoly because they have 100% of the market share on the market that's specific to them."

The truth is because there are only two stores in our example, it really does make sense. Imagine there were only Walmart and Costco and literally nothing else, even small business. Now someone violates Walmart’s rules for a specific item in the store, and they not only ban that item, but also ban every item they sell. Here’s where it gets dystopian. In all platforms that allow competitive stores, the fees settle way…

There is some irony here though, no? For example, if Apple is the only market-place in the country, and rules keep it open and free and available, then there is no need for a 2nd market-place: we've forced Apples to be how we want.

If Apple was allowed to make stupid mistakes like making it very hard to develop Unreal Engine games for iOS, or being jerks in general, then there would be much more justification for building a 2nd market or switching to a 2nd market.

I'm not pitching for no regulation, but the unintended side-effects of force Apple to play well with others is that there is now _no need_ for a competitor who is more open...

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#305

Post by JohnTHaller » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

amaccuish wrote: post #97

What took me aback was the withdrawing permission to notarise their apps for Mac. That was only meant to be a check for known vulnerabilities/malicious software. Apple was more within their rights to kick Fortnite until the dust has settled from the iOS store, that was the retaliation, but now a mechanism supposedly for security has been repurposed as punishment. That's a pretty nasty move and I feel the mask has sli…

In Windows world, you can just pick a new certificate vendor. In Apple world, they have a monopoly and get to dictate who gets 'full access' to both their mobile devices and their desktops/laptops. They could still do unsigned MacOS apps from here out, but Apple has purposely made it difficult for end users to run them.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#306

Post by quotha » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #254

I hope they become a martyr and this turns public opinion.

Do you have any idea how annoying "Fortnite" is to the vast majority of sane adults?!

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#307

Post by baddox » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

woofie11 wrote: post #156

ArchOversight wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't retaliation though for Epic going on Twitter and being angry about the App Store practices, or the situation like Hey where the was a lot of press and negativity. Epic breached the terms of the agreement for their app, so their app was removed from the App Store. Other than needing to fix their app to no longer be in violation of the guidelines, they could have cured that breach of the contract. Instead Ep…

A one-sided agreement containing a retaliation clause, followed by exercising that clause, is retaliation. Say you're desperate and need water in a crisis, and I offer you some, but only if you sign an agreement which gives you water, but says I can punch you in the face whenever you say something I don't like. Say you say something I don't like, and I punch you in the face. Did I just retaliate? Or did the contract…

This argument seems to hinge on the assumption that two parties are experiencing similar "levels of desperation": a person dying of thirst, and the developers of a video game which is available on half a dozen platforms and is probably the most financially successful video game of all time.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#308

Post by hu3 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #296

bob1029 wrote: post #291

Can someone give me compelling reasons for disallowing side-loading of applications on iOS? Hypothetically, if side-loading were to be allowed it could be buried under a configuration+confirmation flag for security reasons just like with Android or Windows 10. Thinking more abstractly about this, I already do "sideload" iOS applications when I sign them with enterprise/developer certs and perform OTA installs from sy…

A single human is smart, people are stupid. They’ll install ANYTHING, no matter how hard it is and how shady the site is. They can’t help themselves. Then their phone is rooted by a bad actor and spreading malware. Who do they blame? Themselves? The shady site? The creator of the trojan? Nope. Apple. They’ll shout from the rooftops how Apple ruined their life and business and remand restitution. The easiest and most…

That's hyperbole. People can sideload Android apps for a decade now and I have yet to see someone complain that sideloading did something bad let alone blame the OS for it.

That is such a rare case that I have a hard time trying to justify the loss of freedom.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#309

Post by quotha » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #231

baddox wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being banned from the iOS App Store also doesn't make your software unusable on Windows, or Mac, or any other non-iOS platform. The App Store's exclusivity is precisely the same as that of nearly every video game console.

We actually have Nintendo to blame for this whole thing. They started the walled garden situation, and people seem oblivious to it and love them as a company. https://www.filfre.net/2016/04/generation-nintendo/ -> > In a landmark ruling against Tengen in March of 1991, Judge Fern Smith stated that Nintendo had the right to “exclude others” from the NES if they so chose, thus providing the legal soil on which many mor…

Triggered.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#310

Post by misnome » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

ProAm wrote: post #289

pwinnski wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I listed three conditions: "[1] violated the policies and then [2] filed a lawsuit and [3] started an extensive PR campaign" Netflix arguably did the first, but I don't recall them doing either of the other two things.

Because they were not kicked from the app store for doing so.

Come on, I don't think anyone is pretending that this wasn't a deliberate provocation by Epic