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Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

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Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#231

Post by oblio »

baddox wrote: post #188
Maascamp wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But doing so wouldn't make that developer's software unusable on Windows.

Being banned from the iOS App Store also doesn't make your software unusable on Windows, or Mac, or any other non-iOS platform. The App Store's exclusivity is precisely the same as that of nearly every video game console.

We actually have Nintendo to blame for this whole thing. They started the walled garden situation, and people seem oblivious to it and love them as a company.

https://www.filfre.net/2016/04/generation-nintendo/ ->

> In a landmark ruling against Tengen in March of 1991, Judge Fern Smith stated that Nintendo had the right to “exclude others” from the NES if they so chose, thus providing the legal soil on which many more walled gardens would be tilled in the years to come.

All walled gardens suck.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#232

Post by croes »

nxc18 wrote: post #180
hu3 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really hope Apple keeps charging 30% app tax and forbidding us from installing apps from outside of App Store?

Yes. In particular, I don't ever want to be in the position that PC users are stuck in, where they can be forced to install certain stores just to get access to the games they want to play. And I certainly don't want to be stuck in the position that Android users are in, where they have to worry about what store they're using, where the software comes from, and whether the app they're about to install is legitimate a…

At least PC users have a large range of playable games. I don't want to be in the position of a Mac users to hope and beg for a Mac port of a game. And the Apple app store has malware too.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#233

Post by jerf »

aaomidi wrote: post #202
woofie11 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A one-sided agreement containing a retaliation clause, followed by exercising that clause, is retaliation. Say you're desperate and need water in a crisis, and I offer you some, but only if you sign an agreement which gives you water, but says I can punch you in the face whenever you say something I don't like. Say you say something I don't like, and I punch you in the face. Did I just retaliate? Or did the contract…

The idea that "it was in the contract that Epic agreed to" is ridiculous. It wasn't a contract that Epic could've disagreed to. This is the same for end users, but we don't have the power to start a lawsuit against Apple.

The legal term you are looking for is "contract of adhesion": https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_%28contrac...

However, a lot of the text around those contracts you'll find centers around a powerful entity like Apple adhering the contract to a nearly-powerless entity, like an individual consumer. I'm not up enough on the details of what case law has been created to know what happen to a contract of adhesion legally when the signer (Epic in this case) is not powerless themselves. Since Epic is at least nominally capable of negotiating their own contract with Apple on roughly equal terms, the contract may be treated more like a normal contract.

My uninformed, personal guess is that Epic isn't conceptualizing this as a legal fight; I bet they think of this as a PR fight where the lawsuit is part of their PR narrative trying to get Apple to back down on their take. As a pure legal fight this doesn't strike me as a strong hand, but as a part of a larger PR fight... who knows. They may be trying to create a position to negotiate a settlement from.

(If this is correct, and I were Epic, I'd be looking to partner with other very large and peeved developers, and create a de facto app producer strike... but maybe they think they have enough market clout to go it alone.)

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#234

Post by nightski »

danudey wrote: post #215
mantap wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually when you fire a customer they can go to one of your competitors. This just proves Epic's argument. There is no competing App Store on iOS because it's not allowed. If Apple "fires" you then your users can no longer install the app onto their own phones. Imagine if Microsoft "fired" Adobe and as a result nobody could install Photoshop on Windows anymore.

If Epic thinks that Apple's and Google's store conditions are onerous, just wait until they find out what it's like to ship a game on PS4 or XBox.

Actually shipping on Xbox one is quite simple and mostly free with the ID@Xbox program or the Creators program.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#235

Post by microtherion »

username3 wrote: post #135
LaGravedad wrote: post #101

Doesn't Epic ban kids when they violate the Fortnite TOS? Epic knew what they were doing. I have no sympathy for them.

Epic doesn’t allow kids to use custom community made skins either. Kids are afraid of getting banned.

I've been wondering about that. So, by Epic's logic, doesn't that make them a monopolist in the Fortnite in-app purchase market?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#236

Post by jkrems »

Jonnax wrote: post #206
jdminhbg wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing that makes a game console only a game playing machine is that it is limited by its producer. All the hardware is there for it to be a general computing device. So when you spool this argument out, it becomes: Google/Apple don't hobble their devices as much as Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo do, therefore Google/Apple should have to open them up more and Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo should not.

Well it's what it is up front. A games consoles plays games and streams some video. A mobile phone is a camera, gps, web browser, telephone, messaging, food delivery, music listening, video watching, taxi calling, banking tool etc etc etc device. living your life, Apple and Google get 30% of your transactions.

> A mobile phone is a camera, gps, web browser, telephone, messaging, food delivery, music listening, video watching, taxi calling, banking tool etc etc etc device.

I'm sure you know that you can do most if not all of those also from a game console. Sure, it doesn't always have a camera or GPS but that's true for many other general purpose computers as well. You can absolutely listen to music or watch videos or do online banking from an XBox or Playstation.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#237

Post by 52-6F-62 »

throwaw4y-plate wrote: post #146
pneill wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. And this is not illegal. Using the store analogy - when you purchase at a store, the store has a markup on the product (usually 40%) - you cannot demand the store take a different markup because a store down the street is selling it for less, you can't set up a sign in the store telling patrons they can get a better deal down the road, and you can't say you want to pay in a particular currency because you do…

I dont get this store analogy. Best Buy can't suppress the existence of Fry's, so I can go do business with Fry's if a bridge with best buy is burnt. Apple suppresses all competition. And the legality has yet to be determined.

And Apple can't suppress the existence of Google or any other platform company.

Personally, I bought an Apple device specifically because it was so locked down.

I don't understand the desire to dictate how a piece of software should operate in this case. Why should Apple be forced to make their software operate like Google's?

There are alternatives so nobody is forced to use Apple's platform if they don't want to. They can buy another. How is this not a case of buyer's remorse?

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#238

Post by jmull »

0x402DF854 wrote: post #23

From a preliminary statement of Epic's motion: > Just over two weeks ago, Apple’s CEO Tim Cook was asked during a Congressional hearing whether Apple has “ever retaliated against or disadvantaged a developer who went public about their frustrations with the App Store”. Mr. Cook testified, “We do not retaliate or bully people. It’s strongly against our company culture.”

Do you mean to imply Tim Cook lied in that statement?

That doesn't work, though. Epic clearly, purposely, and egregiously violated Apple's TOS. It seems like that is the reason Apple's terminating their accounts, not in retaliation for "going public".

(BTW, I think Apple needs to let companies control their own payment systems outside the App Store.)

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#239

Post by Hamuko »

Despegar wrote: post #211
ArchOversight wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't retaliation though for Epic going on Twitter and being angry about the App Store practices, or the situation like Hey where the was a lot of press and negativity. Epic breached the terms of the agreement for their app, so their app was removed from the App Store. Other than needing to fix their app to no longer be in violation of the guidelines, they could have cured that breach of the contract. Instead Ep…

>Instead Epic decided to sue Apple in court. This gives the impression that suing them is what led to Apple terminating their relationship, but that isn't the case. Epic could have sued Apple without the theatrics and they'd have been fine. They didn't even need to violate the terms of the developer agreement to bring their antitrust lawsuit, which is largely about the developer agreement.

I imagine what Epic did helps them out in the legal proceedings considering how the antitrust laws in the US are based on consumer benefit.

Epic introduces a new payment system and passes on the savings to the consumer. Thanks to payment system competition, consumers can save 20% when buying the same items. Apple sees this and completely removes Epic's game to protect its own interests.

It's not hard to see how Apple's behaviour is harming consumers.

Re: Apple to kill Epic’s accounts on Friday the 28th

#240

Post by pjmlp »

saurik wrote: post #137
pjmlp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also want to see Epic crash and burn, this was a PR plan from the very beginning.

If this were just Epic trying to get press as a "stunt", like a giant bluff or expecting to lose, I might agree with you... but Epic has filed the lawsuit and is certainly going to follow through on this: only an idiot does that--at such a heavy cost to their customer base, which otherwise might cause blowback--without having all their ducks in a row on basic PR. Seriously: if you want to be able to take Apple on in…

If Epic was being honest they would have sued Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft.

This way this is just PR stunt.

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