Apple, Epic, and the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#291

Post by emsy » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:15 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #280

danShumway wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

You’re certainly not speaking for me and the many many devs that were harmed by Apple’s arbitrary application of rules. I also want so see people get wild and creative with apps. This doesn’t happen if you’re pre-censoring because you’re unsure if Apple would allow the app.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#292

Post by weehoo » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:16 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #288

sudosysgen wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which makes me think, what prevents me from putting a lens in front to the projector and directly imaging the projection into a camera sensor? Modern cameras can record lossless 48bpp equiv. video in 4K, it would pretty much be a 1:1 copy given sufficiently sophisticated optics. Which leads me to the conclusion that the only reason why no one is ripping movies using Prima Cinema projectors and commodity grade hardwar…

The movies are probably watermarked, so they'd know who leaked them, and then sue the leakers for all they're worth.

This is how some video game demos are managed. Subtle color variations are used throughout the game window to uniquely finger print each copy of the game during media blackout.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#293

Post by danShumway » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:17 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #280

danShumway wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

To be charitable:

If the only people arguing about this lawsuit fell into either my camp or yours (ericmay's), I'd be a lot less irritated about this whole debate.

I fundamentally disagree with you, but at least your arguments are relatively internally consistent. At least I understand where you're coming from.

Give me a hundred people saying, "I like Apple being a dictator", just get rid of all the awful arguments about how, "there is no right side, and both of them are in the wrong."

I couldn't care less whether or not people like Epic in particular. If you spend all of your time getting picky about who can and can't advocate for you, then eventually people will stop advocating for you altogether.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#294

Post by Barrin92 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:18 PM UTC

ladberg wrote: post #168

schoolornot wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call a spade a spade. Not even the mafia extorted businesses for 30%. I'd argue an act of digital eminent domain is in order. Imagine being a store owner and having to give a 30% kickback to your landlord.

Most shops do have to pay somewhere around 15% of the revenue in rent. In addition to the flat cost, there are tons of commercial leases that charge a percentage of profits on top of that.

well maybe the digital word needs Georgism too. The OP is exactly right, what Apple is doing is nothing else than the digital equivalent of extracting land rents.

If Apple, Google et al want to have control over their digital domains honestly instead of breaking them up let's just socialise the economic rents, or cap it at 2% or whatever.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#295

Post by Someone » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:18 PM UTC

x3c wrote: post #219

vageli wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That feels like using an existing monopoly (actually a duopoly w/ google's similar practices) to force developers to purchase products they don't want. Hey didn't want to accept payments via apple, but Apple's market power and decisions were focused on forcing them to. In order to sell goods in a place like Walmart, a manufacturer is subject to onerous terms. Why is the app store different than a retailer limiting…

Because Walmart owns the physical space but apple doesn’t own the physical device.... Apple has set up shop on the real-estate (the device) that it sold over to the user. I’ve seen this argument plenty of times and it rings hollow to me every time.

So, if they started renting the phone to you and everybody else, having a single Apple-controlled App Store would be acceptable?

(That may not even be 100% hypothetical. They have lots of money, so can afford getting delayed payment for phones. They might even be able to become a global phone company, too, and rent you a phone and a network subscription)

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#296

Post by lowbloodsugar » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:18 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #272

enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

>you're frightened that another company might get control and... offer better terms than we have right now?

While some people here might fall for this simple propaganda, I doubt the courts will.

It is totally expected of Epic that they will at the same time make the claim about "freedom" and "choice" while signing exclusive deals so that customers are required to install the Epic store if they wish to play certain games.

If the real issue is my freedom, then let me play Fortnite on the App store thanks. But it's not about my freedom. It's about your $$$.

You're certainly free to do so, and free to say whatever bullshit you think will help you, but you're not going to get a free pass from everybody here.

>What specifically is the horror scenario that you're frightened of?

Really? What sort of horror scenarios have happened with game installers on PCs and Android? Root kits. Spyware. Password capture. Camera activation.

And you know this, so all you are doing is letting us know that you think we are stupid.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#297

Post by tomc1985 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:19 PM UTC

kartayyar wrote: post #279

enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

I don't get the whole objection to mutiple app stores. Instead of clicking icon A, I click icon B and if I get a cheaper game, all power to Epic. I don't spend time in an app store. I spend time playing the game.

So I recently built a living room gaming PC. Installed Steam, Epic Store, GOG, Origin, XBOX, Rockstar Social Club, even Twitch. Pretty much anything where I have a library of games. And let me tell you, what a pain in the ass it is!

I keep all the games organized in Playnite. If I try to launch Epic games from Playnite, most of the time nothing happens. So I start the epic client and... oh look, it logged me out again. So now to play Maneater or whatever I have to log into my password manager with its complicated passphrase from a tiny HTPC keyboard, grab the password, paste it into Epic, wait for Epic to update, click the game icon again, and now it launches. Heaven forbid I actually set up 2FA, cause then I'd have to go through that too!

To say nothing of the fact that the Epic store runs like ass on a brand new third-gen six-core Ryzen CPU with an current-gen GPU and 16gigs of RAM.

Some of the other game stores behave just as bad as this... the only ones that actually seem to work reliably are Steam and GOG, and they've been around a while. Origin constantly nags about updates and "you logged in from another PC" bullshit, Rockstar can't seem to hold on to a session cookie to save its life, and the Twitch client is just a mess all around. XBOX kind of sucked in Beta but they finally fixed the worst issues there.

Multiple launchers is NOT ideal. We all have this fantasy idea that competition will make everything better but really what it results in is now we have a bunch of garbage launchers running on startup (and if you don't have fun waiting for them to update every time you launch them). Just like with streaming... competition is making everything worse

If you "don't spend time in an app store" you're either only using one or two of those launchers or you're lying. The last time things "just worked" was when Steam reigned supreme and unchallenged. (And that's not necessarily a good thing, nearly everyone knows that Valve is a good citizen solely because of management, and I have no doubt that one day that will change and Steam will suck.)

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#298

Post by hhjinks » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:19 PM UTC

darkwizard42 wrote: post #162

tc wrote: post #41

Here's the thing. Even if you're OK with Apple (or whoever) controlling what you can run on your computers, this is a centralization of power that will be co-opted. Let's say that Australia wants to ban consumer encryption. This would currently be difficult to enforce for PC software. But on mobile, this is easy. Just make Apple and Google enforce it! Make them ban such apps from their stores. Now you've achieved per…

I don't think you are using two points that are similar enough. If Australia bans encryption, you as a consumer who resides in Australia has a high switching cost (moving, new job, residence, etc.) and thus the consumer loses out. If Apple starts to use that power badly... you can switch to a number of competitor feature phones with largely the same feature and app capabilities (Android being the most obvious) In a m…

I don't think getting a new phone necessarily has that low a switching cost for many people.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#299

Post by simion314 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:20 PM UTC

spanhandler wrote: post #273

simion314 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Changes to rules change how actors behave in a system. The way software developers and publishers behave on iOS could change in ways that I don't like Probably most apps would still be on store and hopefully you would get a cheaper version from the developer website. What is clear but you probably don't want to admit is Apple is not fighting here for your safety but for extracting mroe money, if they were not that g…

> What is clear but you probably don't want to admit is Apple is not fighting here for your safety but for extracting mroe money, if they were not that greedy Epic,Spotify would not have started this wars and you would have been safe in the wallgarden and extremely satisfied that the other people inside can't escape either. Why wouldn't I admit that? Of course the situation benefits them. I just doubt there's a way t…

IMO the ideal situation for Apple fans is that Apple is forced to offer a choice to developers, either pay a fair fixed charge(like you would pay for webhosting, you have different tiers or plans and fortuneteller with web hosting you have true competition) or a developer could decide to give Apple 30% cut. Probably most developers would chose to pay the fixed fee and the Apple users will have cheaper apps and subscriptions(in app payments) while enjoying the restrictions that nobody can have the option to escape the wallgarden(not sure how are you happy with this though, say in a country Apple is forced to remove all chat apps that are encrypted including browsers and then Apple fans would just say `you should have predicted this,sell the phone and use Android`)

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#300

Post by archagon » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #280

danShumway wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to heavy push back against both-sides-isms here. > I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, but maybe we haven't been clear enough. For the record, we want there to be multiple app stores on iOS. > build a bigger moat and get the profits…

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and…

For someone who has a massive Steam library, why wouldn't they want their Steam games to be available on iOS as well? (For those games that have ports.) I think there's a huge number of people in this boat.