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Apple, Epic, and the App Store

stratechery.com

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Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#261

Post by rstupek »

lilyball wrote: post #34
wmf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Partly because they can but also to prevent developers from gaming the system. Imagine a free app with an IAP to unlock features but Apple only takes 5% from the IAP.

Exactly this. If IAP was a different cut, all apps would go "free" overnight and require an IAP purchase to unlock most of the app. Apple could try something like giving "consumable" IAP a different cut, but I'm sure devs would still try to game that too (e.g. having a consumable that unlocks the app for a set amount of time, rather than a permanent unlock).

Most apps are free already and use ads to generate revenue of which Apple gets $0.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#262

Post by dangoor »

giantrobot wrote: post #186
bluedevil2k wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

actual harm => consumers end up paying more for the apps because the app developers have to increase their price to cover Apple's cut (which is more like a shakedown). I don't see any reason why a company needs to pay any percent of their revenue instead of a flat fee. You pay a % of revenue when someone is your partner or an investor in your company. Apple is neither. In fact, they've shown to be the opposite of a t…

I'm super amused by people bemoaning Apple's cut of sales on the App Store. I remember mobile software before the App Store. Buying software for a Palm or PocketPC device was a fucking shit show. There were multiple competing stores and sometimes even the developer's own site. The prices were ridiculous, partly because everyone had to implement their own payment and distribution systems. If the software didn't work o…

2020 is very different from 2008. Palm and PocketPC devices were "organizers" and not primary computing devices (as smartphones are today, for some users), so there was a lot less at stake back then.

Additionally, companies like Stripe have made integrating payments _way_ easier than it was back then. Hosting downloads is not difficult either. As noted in the Stratechery article, developers not only give up 30%, but give up a customer relationship and can't even issue refunds! They can't do upgrades, either. It's not just the 30%, it's the flexibility in payment models as well.

I don't know that prices would drop, but more developers would have a sustainable business.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#263

Post by gsich »

liability wrote: post #202
gsich wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you played games before? Even in a 5vs5 game, it's hard to gather 9 friends at the same time, with a similar skill.

Of course I have.

Then you should know that the option "just play with friends" is not entirely realistic.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#264

Post by pier25 »

emsy wrote: post #165
pier25 wrote: post #92

Essentially, it's a win-win for Epic. If they win the lawsuit they will (probably) be able to have more control over how they want to distribute their iOS apps. If they lose, they won't have to deal with iOS anymore. Free players cost money too, and it's possible iOS is not so interesting to Epic with the %30 Apple cut. Also, since their business model is based on microtransactions, most of their revenue must come fr…

They made several million dollars daily. I think you severely underestimate the gaming market.

Yes, but those millions come from whales which will most likely follow Fortnite to other platforms.

You think Epic would start a lawsuit without having done their math and willingly decide to lose millions daily plus the legal fees?

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#265

Post by luplex »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #11

A pretty well-thought out article, given the inflammatory nature of the subject matter. I think Apple is right on the line. But I don't see a good argument as to what their doing is being anti-competitive. ~2 million apps are on the app store. Charging a fee for giving developers a huge market that spends money is not exactly unfair. And the rules of engagement are generally applied equally to everyone - the exceptio…

One problem is that Apple does not charge a 30% fee for its own services.

Thus, Apple music can be offered cheaper than Spotify. I'm not sure how exactly this applies to Fortnite, though.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#266

Post by simion314 »

spanhandler wrote: post #163
romanoderoma wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't. You don't lose anything if you don't want to. You should have to keep doing what you already do.

> That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't. Then buy any other general computing product on the market. I'd be more sympathetic to this concern if Android didn't exist. Meanwhile it does, and the users who picked Apple did it because they don't care about this, they don't care very much about this, or because they actively want the App Store restrictions and the ecosystem that they create. > You don't lo…

>Changes to rules change how actors behave in a system. The way software developers and publishers behave on iOS could change in ways that I don't like

Probably most apps would still be on store and hopefully you would get a cheaper version from the developer website.

What is clear but you probably don't want to admit is Apple is not fighting here for your safety but for extracting mroe money, if they were not that greedy Epic,Spotify would not have started this wars and you would have been safe in the wallgarden and extremely satisfied that the other people inside can't escape either.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#267

Post by ohazi »

darkwizard42 wrote: post #162
tc wrote: post #41

Here's the thing. Even if you're OK with Apple (or whoever) controlling what you can run on your computers, this is a centralization of power that will be co-opted. Let's say that Australia wants to ban consumer encryption. This would currently be difficult to enforce for PC software. But on mobile, this is easy. Just make Apple and Google enforce it! Make them ban such apps from their stores. Now you've achieved per…

I don't think you are using two points that are similar enough. If Australia bans encryption, you as a consumer who resides in Australia has a high switching cost (moving, new job, residence, etc.) and thus the consumer loses out. If Apple starts to use that power badly... you can switch to a number of competitor feature phones with largely the same feature and app capabilities (Android being the most obvious) In a m…

The points are not supposed to be similar... you're missing the part of the parent's argument where one is used as a tool to enforce the other, when otherwise it would be difficult/impossible to enforce.

There is only one real competitor: Android. Google would very much like to have the same degree of control that Apple does over their ecosystem, but they're holding back for now so that they can point to Apple as being worse when the congressional inquiries heat up.

Feature phones are not real competitors to smartphones.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#268

Post by username3 »

enra wrote: post #236

While I don't like Apple's 30% cut on multiplatform/subscription products, I think Epic's real motivation here is to run their own App Store, build a bigger moat and get the profits themselves (they take 12% cut, 5% if you use Unreal Engine, from developers in their store). They also make exclusive deals, bribing developers with funding/marketing support, so that the games can only bought in their store for 6-12mo. C…

Apple doesn’t always get 30%. Retailers take a cut when they sell iTunes gift cards. 15% discounts are common.

Epic should sell App Store gift cards.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#269

Post by mahkeiro »

philwelch wrote: post #212
orliesaurus wrote: post #14

Okay this is going to sound stupid but maybe someone else feels like me about it: I don't understand why Apple has to take such a big chunk from transactions of in-app purchases? Similarly Google. Why 30%? Why not 5%? That feels like it would be more honest. Is it just because "they can"?

If I were an app developer who relied on in-app purchases, I would probably care a lot more. But as a consumer, I don’t, and I suggest the only reason consumers have to care is because app developers (understandably) want lower fees and are negotiating terms via PR.

You should care because in the end you are the one paying the 30%.

Re: Apple, Epic, and the App Store

#270

Post by simion314 »

darkwizard42 wrote: post #162
tc wrote: post #41

Here's the thing. Even if you're OK with Apple (or whoever) controlling what you can run on your computers, this is a centralization of power that will be co-opted. Let's say that Australia wants to ban consumer encryption. This would currently be difficult to enforce for PC software. But on mobile, this is easy. Just make Apple and Google enforce it! Make them ban such apps from their stores. Now you've achieved per…

I don't think you are using two points that are similar enough. If Australia bans encryption, you as a consumer who resides in Australia has a high switching cost (moving, new job, residence, etc.) and thus the consumer loses out. If Apple starts to use that power badly... you can switch to a number of competitor feature phones with largely the same feature and app capabilities (Android being the most obvious) In a m…

>If Australia bans encryption, you as a consumer who resides in Australia has a high switching cost (moving, new job, residence, etc.) and thus the consumer loses out.

>If Apple starts to use that power badly... you can switch to a number of competitor feature phones with largely the same feature and app capabilities (Android being the most obvious)

It depends, network are effects are strong on Apple (iMessage) and maybe you already bought tons of apps and software that you can't transfer to Android or Windows.

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