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How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

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Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#141

Post by nemo44x »

geddy wrote: post #22
bzb4 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that once that time arrives the government will force us to consume it by severely taxing actual meat.

Great, meat SHOULD cost a fortune. The actual cost of meat is not what you pay for it, the only reason it’s even affordable is because the taxpayer shoulders the burden of the farm subsidies. Cut those out and a $5 Big Mac would cost almost $15. Add to that the environmental impact, insane water usage, and the fact that meat production will continue to destroy economies through pandemics, and it should cost 10-15x mo…

Most people in society like meat so it makes sense we subsidize it. This is progressive. Otherwise only the wealthy could eat meat. The wealthy actually pay more to eat meat as they pay the majority of the taxes that go into these subsidies so nearly everyone can afford meat in the market. Once again, this is progressive.

Just like roads. Most people in society want to be able to freely travel where they want and when they want to. So we subsidize roads as a society where the wealthy pay more in terms of taxes but everyone gets to use the roads.

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#142

Post by La1n »

searchableguy wrote: post #119
jnathsf wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only need to look at cultures like in India, Taiwan and elsewhere that have large vegetarian population to see that your statement doesn’t hold water.

You shouldn't point toward us as an example. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6540890 https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/malnutr... Guess where do you get folic acid, b12, etc from? As a side note, OTC supplements are not as effective. You need prescription supplements if anyone is considering going vegetarian.

Guess where animals get their B12 from, supplemented to their feed

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#143

Post by seanmcdirmid »

aww_dang wrote: post #107
magicsmoke wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of those animals that became taboo to eat in the West was due to industrialization making pork, beef, and poultry cheaper than other meats and driving them out of the market, and cultural attitudes following afterwards to make them taboo. The "west" ate plenty of strange meats at the dawn of the industrial revolution. Hot dogs sausages often had dog meat in them while they were native to Germany, and you could…

You can still buy horse meat for human consumption in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rag%C3%B9#:~:text=horse https://stefangourmet.com/2013/02/23/there-is-nothing-wrong-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_meat#Italy

They had horse days at the cafeteria when I was doing my post doc in Switzerland. It isn’t bad, but really chewy.

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#144

Post by jaybeeayyy »

snarf21 wrote: post #100
geddy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we need is to stop consuming animals and animal products, or we’ll keep having economy destroying pandemics. Not to mention the obvious problem that farming is horrendous for the animals. Animals aren’t some inanimate object.

The more these discussions progress, the more I wonder if there is really only one solution. We need less people. Trying to convince 8 billion people to do something like never eat meat or fish seems like an impossible goal. We need to raise the standard of living in countries that reproduction rates > 2. We could also remove tax breaks for kids after the second in developed countries to mitigate the incentives for e…

Overpopulation is a racist myth. Developed countries use far more resources and waste significantly more food than developing nations and wealthy people have a larger footprint than their working class counterparts.

https://wwf.panda.org/knowledge_hub/all_publications/living_...

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/01/chart-of-the-day-thes...

https://theconversation.com/emissions-inequality-there-is-a-...

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#145

Post by JoeAltmaier »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #140
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its about using protein that has other uses. E.g. free-range chickens eat bugs; I don't want to eat bugs, but I'll gladly eat chickens.

What do farmed salmon eat, and is that better used for something else?

Dunno. Maybe less efficient use of the same feedstock?

Further, now they're putting oil in Salmon feedstock so they have imaginary dietary advantages i.e. Omega-3 fatty acid, which farm-raised salmon don't have much of normally.

So add that cost to raising salmon.

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#146

Post by seanmcdirmid »

surajama wrote: post #123
huffmsa wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we're not some magical creature free from biological needs. Eating other animals is what got us here. Until we can print actual, chemically identical meat on a conveyor belt, our reliance on animals will continue.

400-500 million people in India are vegetarian [1]. Are these all magical creatures? [1] http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/the-food-habits-of-a-na...

India is incredibly agriculturally productive, with amounts of arable land other countries can only dream of. Try doing the same diet just a few paces up in more arid and mountainous Central Asia and it would be famine.

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#147

Post by La1n »

searchableguy wrote: post #112
snarf21 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more these discussions progress, the more I wonder if there is really only one solution. We need less people. Trying to convince 8 billion people to do something like never eat meat or fish seems like an impossible goal. We need to raise the standard of living in countries that reproduction rates > 2. We could also remove tax breaks for kids after the second in developed countries to mitigate the incentives for e…

It's probably not sustainable. If everyone start consuming at the same rate as an average person from a developed country, world would run out of resources in no time.

Doesn't that indicate that overconsumption, not overpopulation, is the problem.

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#148

Post by harikb »

dis-sys wrote: post #84
evancox100 wrote: post #17

Anyone else catch this? First: “The Chinese government says its distant-water fishing fleet, or those vessels that travel far from China’s coast, numbers roughly 2,600, but other research, such as this study by the Overseas Development Institute (ODI), puts this number closer to 17,000”. Several paragraphs later: “More recently, the Chinese government has stopped calling for an expansion of its distant-water fishing…

Shanghai's population size is 23-24 million, it is undisputed. They have a plan to limit that to 25 million by 2035. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-shanghai-population... According to your logic, they are lying about the population size of Shanghai as well? LOL

For boats, natural state is a static population. Boats don’t reproduce. This is where the comparison falls apart

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#149

Post by gautamdivgi »

noworriesnate wrote: post #82
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And we're not some magical creature free from biological needs. Am I? I became 100% vegetarian a year ago. No one around me was vegetarian. I saved money. I never ate so well and I'm in my best physical form ever. What is magical?

You need supplements to grow healthily as a vegetarian. For example, it's difficult to get Omega 3, 6 and 9 from plants. You need supplements for that. Also you've only been vegetarian a year. Being a vegetarian from birth to death without supplements would be much more difficult to do without major deficiencies. Also vegetarians today have the option of buying food from all over the world, but that wasn't the case f…

Practical experience of trying to go vegetarian/vegan. I gave up after a while. I just felt constantly hungry. Maybe because I started working out and going vegan at the same time.

fwiw - "vegetarian" doesn't count for animal well-being. Egg laying chickens and milk cows are treated really badly and their agony is rather prolonged for the duration of their "productive life".

Re: How China’s Expanding Fishing Fleet Is Depleting the World’s Oceans

#150

Post by snarf21 »

jaybeeayyy wrote: post #144
snarf21 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more these discussions progress, the more I wonder if there is really only one solution. We need less people. Trying to convince 8 billion people to do something like never eat meat or fish seems like an impossible goal. We need to raise the standard of living in countries that reproduction rates > 2. We could also remove tax breaks for kids after the second in developed countries to mitigate the incentives for e…

Overpopulation is a racist myth. Developed countries use far more resources and waste significantly more food than developing nations and wealthy people have a larger footprint than their working class counterparts. https://wwf.panda.org/knowledge_hub/all_publications/living_... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/01/chart-of-the-day-thes... https://theconversation.com/emissions-inequality-there-is-a-...

I'm not sure why you are claiming racism. I'm suggesting we raise the standard of living in poorer countries. That we empower women in these countries. Honestly, how is that racist?

Also, yes, wealthy countries over consume. Collectively we just don't care. We can't even get people to wear a mask. I don't think there is a pragmatic way to convince the west to consume less.

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