Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#221

Post by brianwawok » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

nogabebop23 wrote: post #216

myself248 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow Home Depot sells a lot of things and none of them appear graymarket or fraudulent. This problem exists because Amazon wanted it to exist. They chose to do business in a way that avoids traditional checks and balances. The scale of the problem is entirely on them.

What about Walmart? They have a big online presence and sell a lot of 3rd party - anyone know what their counterfeit situation looks like? I've only ever bought diapers from them and if they were fakes it seems oily rags (or whatever is in the fakes ones) absorb as well as the real deal...

As a seller, you can generally create your own listings on either platform. Or sell on an existing listing. So nothing to stop you from selling counterfeits.

I don’t keep up with the marketplace requirements as maybe I should, but historically the biggest difference was Walmart.com required sellers to be based in the US, and amazon.com allowed sellers from all countries. This hurdle alone can make sellers much easier to chase down and throw the legal book at them.

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#222

Post by quesera » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #128

I've had nothing but good experience with Amazon over the past 10 years. Very few problems but when there is, it's a few minutes to get a replacement or refund immediately, including complicated scenarios like promos, out of date returns, and warranty claims. I must not be the only one with good experiences if they're doing so well. Then again I also check to make sure I'm buying direct from Amazon and reading the mo…

Agree with the experience: Amazon has never done me wrong.

Disagree with the context: You're making the mistake of saying that you do things the proper way and if others would follow your lead, they might have better experiences also. People who have been wronged don't like to hear that other people think it's kind of their fault. Not saying you think, or said, this: but there's a bit of victim-blaming going on. This should not be something Amazon customers need to worry about. And for the record, I am less careful than you. But it's possible that the products I purchase are less attractive to counterfeiters...

Disagree on the comment about eBay. They do not warehouse or ship. It is very clear that the seller is responsible for product description and delivery.

Did not downvote. :)

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#223

Post by _red » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #179

manigandham wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can definitely report items as "inauthentic" and they will be escalated to the seller. Amazon gates sellers by category and ASIN and will remove selling privileges based on complaints. I don't think most people here have any idea 3P/FBA selling works. It takes a lot of work to get listed and move into new categories, and you can be removed very quickly for the slightest of reasons. This goes to show the scale of…

> I don't think most people here have any idea 3P/FBA selling works. It takes a lot of work to get listed and move into new categories, and you can be removed very quickly for the slightest of reasons. This goes to show the scale of the problem in policing logistics at this scale (not to say that Amazon shouldn't be responsible for it). I am not new to 3P/FBA myself. I ran a store in my college days 2010-2012, and kn…

Yes, this is what ended my side-income gig buying / selling used CD's.

I half think that its almost racketeering by amazon.

Lets suppose you go thru the work of finding low volume CD's...mainly from one-off bands that no longer exist or only had a single release. Then you establish an ASIN for each CD, eventually some fraudster appears and list under your ASIN (thanks to co-mingling of inventory). Once a 'fraud or counterfeit' charge is brought against that other seller, amazon 99/100 invalidates the entire ASIN.

So your inventory, although legit is now held captive by amazon in their warehouse. So they send you a nice little email that states: You can either pay us $4 to send you back your CD or you can "allow us to dispose of it for you".

That last bit is the real punchline. They will then proceed to sell your CD and keep 100% of the money. They routinely farm their sellers using such tactics.

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#224

Post by nomercy400 » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

jpollock wrote: post #46

This will have interesting impacts on all marketplaces. Ebay, Walmart, NewEgg, all the app stores on every platform - if a game is malware (or trashes your machine with a bug), is that Steam's responsibility? It's delivered from their servers with their packaging.

Depends on how much effort is shown to have been made by these app stores to prevent malware. For example, if Steam shows significant cases where malware games have been removed, and can prove they actively work to remove these cases, then it won't be much of a problem for Steam. They are doin their best.

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#225

Post by baybal2 » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

_jas wrote: post #220

baybal2 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think most people here have any idea 3P/FBA selling works. It takes a lot of work to get listed and move into new categories, and you can be removed very quickly for the slightest of reasons. This goes to show the scale of the problem in policing logistics at this scale (not to say that Amazon shouldn't be responsible for it). I am not new to 3P/FBA myself. I ran a store in my college days 2010-2012, and kn…

Sorry, I'm a bit naive in this area. How easy is it really for a Chinese vendor set up a shell company and build a fly-by-night business to compete with a legitimate seller who has to spend a considerable amount of money? Especially if they are only able to snipe a few sales away from the legitimate company before getting deleted?

For those who do this at a scale, very easy, and they can snipe far from just a few sales.

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#226

Post by TakerofVita » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #129

icebergwarrior wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this type of comment all the time, but I've never purchased anything but legitimate items off of Amazon. What are you buying that you consistently run into fakes / knockoffs?

Memory cards / thumbdrives are the canonical example here, I think. The fakes are plentiful , and comingling ensures that you are playing roulette every single time you purchase one, and the fakes are good enough that they'll stand up to visual scrutiny unless you know exactly what you're looking for, and sometimes not even then.

I remember for a brief period where there were 256 GB micro SD card listings on Amazon...before there were any real ones released by anyone.

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#227

Post by annoyingnoob » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

The real issue is that Amazon has turned into Alibaba/Aliexpress and is filled with low quality products. Amazon will sell anything as long as its cheap.

I think this will only hurt Amazon where there is some injury beyond a defective product. Amazon already uses its contracts and terms of service to push the cost of returns and such to the third party supplier. Amazon will do its best to deflect most or all of the pain through better contracts.

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#228

Post by bb611 » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #201

How does this apply to eBay or Newegg? I've written about how we've lost a lot of smaller independent websites and everyone has to have a store on Amazon/eBay/Newegg/Reverb these days: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/the-death-of-the-mom-and-pop-... I imagine this wouldn't affect eBay since it's clearly a site where you are buying from a seller. eBay is more of a newspaper listening. But what about Newegg or Reverb wh…

The decision (linked above) makes the distinction based on Amazon placing itself in the supply chain between distributor and customer. eBay seems safe from this one, Newegg will have liability for those 3rd party products they actually ship.

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#229

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

xoxoy wrote: post #60

Shopping on Amazon has become unbearable for like 95% of categories these days. The experience is like rummaging through some shady tourist market with a dozen stall owners trying to scam you. The pricing is all whack with lots of counterfeits that have gamed the ranking and review systems. It’s just not worth trying to filter and find things that are actually competitively priced and sold directly by Amazon. Have no…

I use Wirecutter and then go search for the items I want on walmart.com, bestbuy.com, b&h, Barnes and noble, etc.

I boycott Amazon. I feel jerked around any time I use their site.

Re: Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court

#230

Post by xxs » Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

dingo454 wrote: post #215

xxs wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

amazon.de is fine and the personal does speak English. More also it's the EU, hence free returns and no questions asked (by law) for 2 weeks. plus 2y warranty. I can't say bad words about the EU version of amazon when it comes to customer service. Yes the counterfeit stuff is there but the free returns mitigate that. To the grandparent poster: you wont be able to order e-books off the uk version... and would have to…

Note that when ordering outside the country you still have to pay for the shipping fee of the return yourself _to_ the amazon store of origin you selected, making this a lot less flexible (and slower) than you'd think. As a frequent traveler across the EU, this bit me both on amazon.de/fr. I'm not sure if there are exceptions to these rules, but free returns are frequently only free if within the same country and it'…

>Note that when ordering outside the country you still have to pay for the shipping fee of the return yourself _to_ the amazon store of origin you selecte

That is false - I do order outside and it costs around 10 + 10euro/kg for around 7-10days delivery (express within 2-3days is around double). When I returned anything (3x times) - amazon paid back the shipping costs, BOTH my own sending and the bill sending back to them. If the item was part of a bigger order, they paid back partially my own cost for sending it to me initially. And they always foot the bill for the sending back in full.

More also, there was a hard drive that failed 2nd day I installed, I complained, they called and did send one immediately prior I even returned the original one to them, which they reimbursed the bill for. The drive arrived the next day (shipped by courier/air). Like I've said - I cant say bad words about their service in the EU.