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I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

quirksmode.org

211–220 of 245 posts

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#211

I find the premise technical writing is under appreciated or is only a professional skill little odd. Wikipedia and StackOverflow have proved that technical writing can be done by community and crowd sourced effectively with active moderation . This model has and can work, even independent sites like caniuse.com have been able to good quality content and are used widely.

The community can do an okay job but not a great one. The writing on Wikipedia is shoddy and inconsistent, and there are many many missing sources even if the article is accurate. I'm a huge fan though! Similarly, many stack overflow questions are out of date, and good luck getting them updated to reflect current best practices. And if you do ask the same question again trying to resurface a newer, better way to do s…

I am not sure dedicated full time employees can do better job as whole, on a single person level a professional developer, encyclopedist or writer will outperform even the best amateurs sure, but as a community many open source projects ( documentation or applications) have outperformed professional ones many times.

PostgreSQL is a good example, it fantastic documentation and runs on mostly volunteer work the documentation is on par (IMHO better) to say Oracle/ MSSQL/ DB2 documentation which have paid professional writers behind it for example

Quality is more a function of editorial oversight rather than nature of contributions itself.

SO and wikipedia has both been effective partly because of stricter review process ( reason their brands are trusted) and also have been criticized for it, getting the balance right is not easy.

Sub-reddits are good way to study this, there are ones which emphasize on participation over quality and vice versa, i.e. optimize for the reader or the writer.

There are no perfect solution, and communities must keep changing, early on contributions are more important i.e. quantity, as the site and brand grows large quality is more important (SO and wiki both went through this lifecycle).

MDN has very different starting point - strong brand and content quality but no contributing community. They will have to come with something that fits their unique needs.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#212
ArchWiki[1] is a counterexample to the notion that the community cannot write good technical documentation. It is actually much better written and more thorough than MDN, but it's also concerning a topic that attracts many hobbyists. To be fair, web dev is not something many people do without being paid, as opposed to tinkering with Linux, so the talent pool may be smaller.

Also, the W3C and ECMA standards documents are all free and are more authoritative references than any wiki. It would be interesting to see if a language model e.g. GPT-3 could translate the standardese into something more readable to laymen.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#213
post #204
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. " More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24160874 https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I am a gay technical professional, and I see homophobic or otherwise dehumanizing language tolerated, with moderation efforts instead against those calling out bigoted comments. I can tell you this makes me feel unwelcome, and makes me disappointed in our industry in general. Dog whistles are often very obvious, as is the case here. Not allowing any common-sense deviation from "always presume good faith" is absolutel…

Common sense is always welcome. Note the word 'plausible' in that guideline—it extends over the whole.

In this particular case it looks like we see common sense as pointing in opposite directions, but such differences are inevitable any time that interpretation and judgment calls are involved, which is certainly true of moderation. Beyond that, it's hard to answer general statements about HN moderation when they don't include specific links. You might well be talking about comments that we simply didn't see (cf https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24161292). There are many other possibilities too.

Usually when I hear generalizations about HN moderation on political/ideological issues, they're being made by strong adherents to one ideological position who perceive the moderators as being secretly against their position. That's problematic because there are intense cognitive biases conditioning such perceptions, such as the one where people are more likely to notice cases they dislike than the ones they agree with, and to weight them much more heavily (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). If you consider that phenomenon, you'll notice that it guarantees that unbiased moderation will always be experienced as biased by passionate perceivers, regardless of which position they adhere to. This is a double bind situation for the moderators, and it makes such complaints difficult to respond to except by pointing out that the other side feels exactly the same way.

I don't mean to say that that's the case with your perceptions, just that it's hard to discuss these things without concrete cases to look at. Based on your comment, my guess is that we would agree on egregious cases (and those certainly get moderated here, except when we don't see them), but would perhaps draw the lines differently on borderline cases, like the GP. That too is inevitable when one is trying to moderate a community that has countless different perspectives—it's impossible to satisfy everyone, or even to satisfy anyone completely. But there's a choice here too: we want HN to be different from the places on the internet that are dominated by the online callout/shaming culture (not because the callouts are always wrong, but because of the systemic effect on the community when they become the default). For that, I think the plausibility guideline is the right medicine. It basically leads to scolding/banning for egregious cases, forgiveness for borderline cases, and open-mindedness in unclear ones (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24073607).

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#214
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>MDN is a reference as much as it is a learning resource.. >Their employers, big or small, should be the ones paying for it. Your argument is counter intuitive, if it is truly a reference, then surely the developers themselves should pay for it. A company hires a developer with the expectation that they know their field (including the standards etc.). It is the developers' own concern if they (understandably) need a…

If that is the case , Stackoverflow should not be where it is now. In every field there is lot to learn. you learn everyday.you cannot find one who knows everything. If someone says it, don't hire him

SO is the opposite of MDN. If you do not approach any piece of StackOverflow content with the presumption that it could be dangerously not-even-wrong, God bless you.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#215
post #210
post #4

Rather sad the two proposals here are either "giant browser vendors should pay for it" or "independent web developers should pay for it." It's one thing for developers to pay for things that will develop their independent careers, but MDN is a reference as much as it is a learning resource; it's something developers constantly use at their jobs. Their employers , big or small, should be the ones paying for it. Of cou…

I feel like we should get to a point where it's common for companies to give their employees a donation budget to spend on whatever they see fit.

You mean a salary?

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#216

One thing which really resonated: "But will you do the boring but necessary browser testing to figure out if what you’re describing is always true, or just most of the time? And will you repeat that testing once new versions have come out? Will you go through related pages..." This. A thousand times this. The problem for me isn't the quantity of information any more, it's the quality. 10-15 years ago if you hit an ev…

To me this is related to the "terrarium problem" of software ecosystems, where the larger the ecosystem is, the more capable it is in some sense, but the less it can actually be understood. Web tech being all encompassing has made it an unsustainably large terrarium.

And you can mitigate a terrarium's impact somewhat by defining a protocol around it, but then the protocol becomes the new terrarium. And so it goes. That is why it never really gets solved by more general-purpose layers, but it does get solved in some degree by the documentation, which at least gives you a map of the jungle, and it gets solved for any end use by distilling down to a smaller terrarium that can be understood by its definitions rather than its dependencies.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#217

I feel like this also speaks to the wider trend in OSS. Businesses in many (the majority of?) and their programmers have come to expect free compilers, developer tools, libraries, security patches... and documentation and all that entails. "Open source," projects that are well funded appear "free," which seems to distort perceptions and opinions. Maintaining good documentation, like maintaining libraries, and good co…

The EU could probably spare a dime on Firefox and MDN, the US and other big nations too. I find public infrastructure of the internet is something I wouldn't mind my taxes being spent on.

Of course this opens another bag of problems of how to decide on which projects to finance how much or unwanted govermental influence on the projects. But I would still say it is a realistic alternative to corporate sponsors and patreon style funding.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually the provider of a system or a standard also provides the documentation. Should my employer also pay to keep MSDN c# docs up to date? Or should that be the task of microsoft employees?

Microsoft gates plenty of training content behind Visual Studio subscriptions. Also, who is the "provider" of the web platform?

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Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#219
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like we should get to a point where it's common for companies to give their employees a donation budget to spend on whatever they see fit.

You mean a salary?

I think he means an amount that employees are allowed to spend to support software they rely on but not keep for themselves.

Re: I Love MDN, or the cult of the free in action

#220
post #17

Google seems to be paying technical writers to build the free (growing) alternative to MDN, https://web.dev . It's not a generalized web resource yet like MDN, but just wait. Of course, you'll have to accept that the documentation here will likely have a Chrome-centric view of web development, further establishing the Chrome-only version of the web. The loss of MDN will just result in Firefox becoming less relevant.…

(I'm a googler who works closely with the web.dev team). Google also pays technical writers to contribute to MDN which we consider to be THE destination for reference documentation. Both Google and Microsoft have employed multiple fulltime techwriters to contribute to MDN for the last ~7 years, I believe. We don't consider web.dev to be an alternative to MDN. web.dev doesn't do reference documentation, but rather gui…

I have my doubts that MDN will be able to keep receiving the same level of updates with these layoffs. I'd hope they would, but that doesn't seem logical unless either contributions increase from outisde somehow (e.g. Google and Microsoft decides to add more writers for MDN), or GPT-3 starts generating those docs.

Now if MDN starts becoming outdated, someone else will fill that void. W3Schools maybe (nobody wants this), but it seems like a better opportunity for Google to swoop in and lead, to further solidify their domination in the browser space. Cynical sounding to you I'm sure, but that seems logical to me from a homo economicus business stance. I'd be happy to hear I'm missing something or wrong in some way so this doesn't happen, since after all, competition is great.

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