61–70 of 81 posts
> It was true, as social worker Jane Addams lamented, that “never before in civilization have such numbers of young girls been suddenly released from the protection of the home and permitted to walk unattended upon city streets and to work under alien roofs.” Wow.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Is that really true?
No, it's not. I just finished reading a book where the author talks about growing up in the late 70s, early 80s, and one night his father started beating his mom with the buckle end of his belt. She managed to hit the panic alarm at their house, and when the police showed up, they police didn't even talk to her, even though she was standing there with blood running down her face. The father just told them that she go…
Also, while it is probably true that there were sometimes inappropriate police responses to domestic violence in the past, that is not the general case of a woman screaming for help in a public place from a strange man.
Even so, the story you're talking about sounds very unusual.
Also note that the honest research since the 1970s shows that domestic violence is two-way, and that women initiate the majority of violence.
Reference: Thirty Years Denying the Evidence on Gender Symmetry in Partner Violence, Murray Strauss, University of New Hampshire. Summarizes results from 200 studies.
Around the same time, 1970s, Erin Pizzey, creator of the first womens' shelters in the UK, observed (as she wrote in her book) that many of the women that came to her for shelter were as violent or more violent than the men they were escaping from.
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I guess since it would be so inconvenient, just stabbing someone right away is ok... ?
An armed society is a polite society...
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Considering the state of medicine in 1903, there's a good chance he lost the arm or died.
We have no concrete knowledge so we're both guessing. But have a look at history and you'll see that not every kid who skinned a knee got some horrendous complication. Chances are he didn't either. Also, he didn't get stabbed with a broadsword, it was a hatpin. While we don't know, chances are he was fine.
"Blood poisoning" i.e. infection:
https://cdsun.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/cornell?a=d&d=CDS1...
Another "jostled on public transportation" incident:
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19060711.2.68&e=-...
Here she mistook a prank by a kid as an unwelcome advance from an innocent man:
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19030822.2.48&e=-...
That's not to say that everyone who took a puncture wound from a hatpin was grievously injured, but you shouldn't be so casually dismissive of the fact that they could do very real harm. Regardless of its intended utility, a foot of sharp metal is still a foot of sharp metal when it bites into flesh.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
We have no concrete knowledge so we're both guessing. But have a look at history and you'll see that not every kid who skinned a knee got some horrendous complication. Chances are he didn't either. Also, he didn't get stabbed with a broadsword, it was a hatpin. While we don't know, chances are he was fine.
> But have a look at history and you'll see "Blood poisoning" i.e. infection: https://cdsun.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/cornell?a=d&d=CDS1... Another "jostled on public transportation" incident: https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19060711.2.68&e=-... Here she mistook a prank by a kid as an unwelcome advance from an innocent man: https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19030822.2.48&e=-... That's not to say…
Maybe she stabbed him right through the arm with blood gushing anime style! Maybe she barely broke the skin.
Maybe he was fine. Maybe he died from tetanus. Maybe he got run over shortly after stepping out of the carriage. Maybe he gave up his life of mashing, donated everything to charity and became a monk.
We don't know. But I know which way I'd bet.
As for other incidents, not every incident is the same, not all results are the same, accidents happen and some are likely outright hostile too!
To compare them and say an outcome in one should be applicable to another is not practicable.
For the original case I would happily maintain, to defend herself as she did, with the information she had at hand, was entirely reasonable.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But have a look at history and you'll see "Blood poisoning" i.e. infection: https://cdsun.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/cornell?a=d&d=CDS1... Another "jostled on public transportation" incident: https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19060711.2.68&e=-... Here she mistook a prank by a kid as an unwelcome advance from an innocent man: https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19030822.2.48&e=-... That's not to say…
Possibilities /= probabilities. Maybe she stabbed him right through the arm with blood gushing anime style! Maybe she barely broke the skin. Maybe he was fine. Maybe he died from tetanus. Maybe he got run over shortly after stepping out of the carriage. Maybe he gave up his life of mashing, donated everything to charity and became a monk. We don't know. But I know which way I'd bet. As for other incidents, not every…
I propose a truce: Neither of us ever run for political office.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Possibilities /= probabilities. Maybe she stabbed him right through the arm with blood gushing anime style! Maybe she barely broke the skin. Maybe he was fine. Maybe he died from tetanus. Maybe he got run over shortly after stepping out of the carriage. Maybe he gave up his life of mashing, donated everything to charity and became a monk. We don't know. But I know which way I'd bet. As for other incidents, not every…
We are clearly at an impasse. You can go your way enjoying the cognitive dissonance of thinking it's okay to murder suspected gropers on crowded trains, and I'll go my way choosing not to live your bloodsoaked justice porn nightmare ("anime style!" Really?). I propose a truce: Neither of us ever run for political office.
I touted possibilities, doesn't mean I wished for them! I wasn't hoping for anime style blood! I would wish the masher not start the whole thing in the first place.
But I agree we are at an impasse.
As much as I want to agree with your truce on exactly those terms... (I currently hate the idea of getting into politics.)
I can't say openly and honestly on the internet that I never will want to run for political office. These days have shown it would come back to bite me should I say such.
I CAN say I will never run for Office outside of Australia - will that do?
In response to some comments: If someone breaks down your door and enters your house, I (and I think most others) see nothing wrong with you defending yourself. Why is it different here? It doesn't matter if their intention is to rob you or not.
If an aggressive homeless person approaches me on the street and I'm not sure of his state of mind and intentions, should I be allowed to stab him?
> "When he lifted his arm and draped it low across her back, Leoti had enough. In a move that would thrill victim of modern-day subway harassment, she reached for her hatpin—nearly a foot long—and plunged it into the meat of the man’s arm. He let out a terrible scream and left the coach at the next stop." Although what the man did is inappropriate, stabbing him seems excessive. She could've first asked him to stop. >…
You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability to push them out of it. If you're 6'2" and the other guy is 6'2" you're on pretty even footing. But if you're 5'1" and the guy is 6'2" you're not on even footing and shouldn't be expected to act like you are. This is to say nothing of how physically intimidating i…
You make it sound like she was cornered and in mortal danger. The carriage was crowded with people. Yes, he was (likely) a creepy dirtbag who deserved to be punished. STABBING SOMEONE WITH A FOOT OF SHARP STEEL IS NOT "MELLOW"! It's nuclear. You either have a frightfully diminished understanding of the potential lethality of stabbing someone, or you have a psychotically draconian image of justice.
I'm sure than in almost all of these cases, the woman had already led the man know that she objected to his attacks (and groping a woman without permission is an attack), either verbally, nonverbally, or both, and the idiot persisted. I'm all for the "hatpin girls".
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19030822.2.48&e=-...