The Hatpin Peril (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#21

Post by rbecker » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:27 PM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #9

jschwartzi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability to push them out of it. If you're 6'2" and the other guy is 6'2" you're on pretty even footing. But if you're 5'1" and the guy is 6'2" you're not on even footing and shouldn't be expected to act like you are. This is to say nothing of how physically intimidating i…

I think stabbing someone has a very high chance of making the situation far more dangerous than just asking the person to stop. Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Women and children first into the lifeboa…

> Women and children first into the lifeboats, remember?

More than just an empty phrase: of the passengers on the Titanic, 72% of adult women survived, 50% of children, and 16% of adult men: http://www.icyousee.org/titanic.html

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#22

Post by lolc » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:27 PM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #2

> "When he lifted his arm and draped it low across her back, Leoti had enough. In a move that would thrill victim of modern-day subway harassment, she reached for her hatpin—nearly a foot long—and plunged it into the meat of the man’s arm. He let out a terrible scream and left the coach at the next stop." Although what the man did is inappropriate, stabbing him seems excessive. She could've first asked him to stop. >…

The problem at the time was that those behaviours were acknowledged to be inappropriate but addressing them verbally did not stop the perpetrators from repeating. The threat of unmediated violence changed the risk profile of the action.

Also, you may not have this expectation yourself, but society at the time would not be surprised to see a male in a similar situation react with at least the threat of violence. In this view females just normalized their behaviour in public.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#23

Post by dmurray » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #4

quickthrowman wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do understand that women were not allowed to vote during the hatpin panic, right? Perhaps that fact will provide some context as to why women were stabbing men with hatpins for sexually assaulting them. They didn’t have the same rights that men did!

Yes, but that doesn't make it any more reasonable to beat someone in the face with an umbrella for saying something you don't like... Also, as a separate point, it was only in 1868 that all men were able to vote in the United States, although it seems most men could vote by the 1820s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_voting_rights_in_t... Would it have been acceptable for a non-property-holding white male in…

> Would it have been acceptable for a non-property-holding white male in 1820 to beat another man with a stick if the other man offended him, on the basis of the first man lacking voting rights?

If we're going to go for "all men", how about a felon or an immigrant attacking a proper citizen in 2020 on the same basis?

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#24

Post by rbecker » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #12

crooked-v wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's reasonable to at least attempt it Now consider having to do that twice a day, every day or every other day, where in some X% of the cases the man involved may themselves turn violent immediately after being rejected.

I guess since it would be so inconvenient, just stabbing someone right away is ok... ?

An armed society is a polite society...

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#25

Post by cryptoz » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

jschwartzi wrote: post #19

epicureanideal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think stabbing someone has a very high chance of making the situation far more dangerous than just asking the person to stop. Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Women and children first into the lifeboa…

I think you're taking this pretty far down the slippery slope. Someone who "mashes" up to you by taking advantage of the carriage bouncing and then slips his arm around you without saying anything is very different from someone asking you for directions. I could see the former being a prelude to assault, while the latter wouldn't be.

The former is not a "prelude" to assault, it is assault.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#26

Post by jschwartzi » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #14

epicureanideal wrote: post #2

> "When he lifted his arm and draped it low across her back, Leoti had enough. In a move that would thrill victim of modern-day subway harassment, she reached for her hatpin—nearly a foot long—and plunged it into the meat of the man’s arm. He let out a terrible scream and left the coach at the next stop." Although what the man did is inappropriate, stabbing him seems excessive. She could've first asked him to stop. >…

Responding by STABBING someone, as a measure of first defense, is ludicrous, disproportionate, and far more immoral than the harassment leading to it. The harassment is ALSO TERRIBLE. Just not STABBINGLY so.

You should consider it from the point of view of someone who is very vulnerable to assault, who is not at all on an even footing with her potential assailant, and who is in a confined and semi-private space with her assailant. Stabbing someone who invades your personal space slowly over the course of the trip, culminating in putting their arm around your shoulders. As a man I would start throwing elbows, but stabbing the guy with a hat pin seems pretty understandable in those circumstances too.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#27

Post by floren » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

jschwartzi wrote: post #19

epicureanideal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think stabbing someone has a very high chance of making the situation far more dangerous than just asking the person to stop. Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Women and children first into the lifeboa…

I think you're taking this pretty far down the slippery slope. Someone who "mashes" up to you by taking advantage of the carriage bouncing and then slips his arm around you without saying anything is very different from someone asking you for directions. I could see the former being a prelude to assault, while the latter wouldn't be.

"Got a light?" is a classic prelude to a mugging.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#28

Post by deeblering4 » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

Reminds me of a comedian who said “if I have $1000 dollars in my pocket while walking home at night, I have something that another man wants to take from me and it makes me feel scared. This is how it must feel to be a woman all the time, always having something that another man wants to take from you.”

I’m paraphrasing, but I thought this was an interesting perspective into a kind of vulnerability that a lot of men probably hadn’t thought about.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#29

Post by jasonv » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #2

> "When he lifted his arm and draped it low across her back, Leoti had enough. In a move that would thrill victim of modern-day subway harassment, she reached for her hatpin—nearly a foot long—and plunged it into the meat of the man’s arm. He let out a terrible scream and left the coach at the next stop." Although what the man did is inappropriate, stabbing him seems excessive. She could've first asked him to stop. >…

I don't read the article as necessarily defending the practice -- it talks about the mores of the time and why this might have been happening with more frequency for a spell. The article also notes that the practice dissipated as daily fashion trends shifted.

Re: The Hatpin Peril (2014)

#30

Post by not2b » Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 10:33 PM UTC

I'm sure than in almost all of these cases, the woman had already led the man know that she objected to his attacks (and groping a woman without permission is an attack), either verbally, nonverbally, or both, and the idiot persisted. I'm all for the "hatpin girls".