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Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

forbes.com

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Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#21

Post by acdha »

save_ferris wrote: post #10
acdha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scaremongering isn't the right way to describe a real, well-documented ongoing concern. We have a long history of app developers trying to monetize their user's privacy, and that also explains why your comparison is inaccurate: if you buy an iOS device you are already trusting Apple. If you don't trust Camera to do nothing more than geotag your photos, you can't use iOS at all because every mechanism which would prot…

Don't you think it's at least a little hypocritical that they don't extend the same privacy configuration options to their apps that they mandate for 3rd party apps? Sure, I generally trust Apple more than a random 3rd party developer, but the fact that Apple doesn't trust me to set my own privacy configuration for the camera makes me trust them less.

Again, how large is the population of people who don't trust Apple's apps not to exfiltrate their data but do trust Apple's OS to enforce restrictions on the apps built-in to the OS?

If, for example, you don't trust Camera with your location data you also need to be concerned about having cellular networking enabled and making sure that Apple's WiFi interface, crash report, software updates, Music/Books/TV, etc. don't share that same data or things like IP addresses which are often effectively the same.

Remember, this is only about code which ships in the OS. If you look at the apps which Apple ships through the app store, they do follow the same controls: my “Apple Store” app only allows location access while I'm using it, I can disable background app refresh, etc.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#22

Post by gruez »

jeffbee wrote: post #2

Apple exempts all their iOS software from their own privacy scaremongering. iOS never pops up a scary dialog warning you that Camera has accessed your location twice in the last week, even though Camera accesses your location every time you start it. There is a completely separate iOS privacy regime for Apple's own apps.

It makes sense if you consider why the feature was added in the first place: to catch malicious behavior by apps. eg. apps that tracks your location even after you've closed it, or surreptitiously record you. It doesn't really make sense to do so for first-party apps because apple controls the operating system, so from a security perspective it doesn't add any meaningful security. If apple wanted to be malicious they could disable those alerts from ios, or do their spying from ios itself so it bypasses the app sandbox entirely.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#23

Post by anonobviosly »

It's baffling to me that Apple doesn't get get more attention from regulators. They're very blatant in behavior which is explicitly illegal in current antitrust law. They 1) formed a cartel with book publishers to increase ebook prices, 2) formed a cartel with multiple other tech companies to suppress software engineer wages, and now they're 3) using a dominant position in one market to enter into another.

The other tech companies do things which one could argue should be illegal... Apple does things which already are illegal.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#24

Post by zepto »

This piece is complete bullshit.

IOS14 is unreleased, and features continue to change.

We have no idea whether Apple’s ad network will require permissions or not by the time the software is released.

Usually these permissions are requested during set up, but the set up flow is not usually finalized until shortly before the release.

You do get asked if you will allow Apple’s apps to have access to Location data and other personal data. There is no reason to suppose the set up flow won’t ask you about this preference too.

The idea that 3rd parties have to ask ‘every single time’ is misleading. They mean on every single installation.

Yes, if they release software with this preferential treatment, by all means call it out.

But this piece is just dishonest innuendo.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#25

Post by wlesieutre »

jeffbee wrote: post #2

Apple exempts all their iOS software from their own privacy scaremongering. iOS never pops up a scary dialog warning you that Camera has accessed your location twice in the last week, even though Camera accesses your location every time you start it. There is a completely separate iOS privacy regime for Apple's own apps.

And Apple is 100% sure of exactly what happens with that location data.

I'd be happy to get some limited exceptions to this, like "3rd party camera apps can get pre-granted location access, but only if the developer agrees that the location data will be used for nothing but EXIF tags, and if it is ever found to have left the device the developer gets delisted from the app store."

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#26

Post by beervirus »

save_ferris wrote: post #10
acdha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scaremongering isn't the right way to describe a real, well-documented ongoing concern. We have a long history of app developers trying to monetize their user's privacy, and that also explains why your comparison is inaccurate: if you buy an iOS device you are already trusting Apple. If you don't trust Camera to do nothing more than geotag your photos, you can't use iOS at all because every mechanism which would prot…

Don't you think it's at least a little hypocritical that they don't extend the same privacy configuration options to their apps that they mandate for 3rd party apps? Sure, I generally trust Apple more than a random 3rd party developer, but the fact that Apple doesn't trust me to set my own privacy configuration for the camera makes me trust them less.

Apple's in control of the operating system. If you don't trust them, why would you think that disabling access to the camera app would do any good?

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#27

Post by zepto »

anonobviosly wrote: post #23

It's baffling to me that Apple doesn't get get more attention from regulators. They're very blatant in behavior which is explicitly illegal in current antitrust law. They 1) formed a cartel with book publishers to increase ebook prices, 2) formed a cartel with multiple other tech companies to suppress software engineer wages, and now they're 3) using a dominant position in one market to enter into another. The other…

What are you talking about?

They were subjected to regulatory action over both of your first two concerns and forced to desist from the behavior.

As to #3, this applies just as much to Amazon, Google and Facebook and frankly Microsoft too...

...and it turns out that all except Microsoft in fact are under regulatory scrutiny and antitrust action.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#28

Post by jeffbee »

gruez wrote: post #22
jeffbee wrote: post #2

Apple exempts all their iOS software from their own privacy scaremongering. iOS never pops up a scary dialog warning you that Camera has accessed your location twice in the last week, even though Camera accesses your location every time you start it. There is a completely separate iOS privacy regime for Apple's own apps.

It makes sense if you consider why the feature was added in the first place: to catch malicious behavior by apps. eg. apps that tracks your location even after you've closed it, or surreptitiously record you. It doesn't really make sense to do so for first-party apps because apple controls the operating system, so from a security perspective it doesn't add any meaningful security. If apple wanted to be malicious they…

There's a neutral way to do this. They could pop up a surprise dialog that says something like:

  These apps used your location.
  * "Popular near me"
  * Maps
  * Google Maps
  * Chrome
If I saw that dialog, I'd probably be tempted to disable the Popular Near Me feature, which I've never heard of and therefore I assume provides me no value and, at a minimum, might be cutting into my battery life. But Apple doesn't present me with that dialog because they don't want to impair their own advertising business.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#29

Post by zepto »

jeffbee wrote: post #20
matthewmacleod wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the same options to disable location data for the built-in Camera app that you have with any other app.

Yes, but iOS does not proactively beg you to disable location access for Apple Maps, the way it does for Google Maps even if you've been using Google Maps daily since 2007.

Actually it does, and always has.

When you set up iOS there is a full screen permission request to allow location data for Apple’s apps.

Re: Apple’s ad network gets ‘preferential access to users’ data’ vs Facebook, Google

#30

Post by xoa »

saagarjha wrote: post #16
xoa wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duh? What's up with all the recent assertions that there is any sort of trust equivalency for 3rd parties vs Apple within the iOS ecosystem? Apple is part of the core trust foundation for any iOS user. They are present in the entire freaking stack, from the SoC everything runs on up. As a technical matter, they can do absolutely anything they want. By definition if you run iOS you trust Apple's stuff, from the hardwa…

The framework for this is called “Transparency, Consent, and Control”, and providing these options for system apps would check the box for all three of these things. Of course, you have to trust Apple to do it right, but like you said you already did that when you bought the phone. This, this isn’t about trust, but the reasons I just mentioned.

System apps are right there with every single 3rd party app in terms of control though. They have an explanation just like Apple requires in general, and you can turn off location or whatever else usage. If I go to Settings > Privacy > Location Services, "Camera" is right there with the standard indicator for that it has been used, a "While Using the App" set, and "App explanation: 'Photos and videos will be tagged with the location where they are taken.'" The options for Never and Always are there.

The only complaint here seems to be that the bootstrapping for granting permission is part of the initial device setup screen and location services, but that seems perfectly reasonable in line with user expectations for default system services on fresh system. I strongly disagree that "fairness" somehow is a valid complaint here in the way GP suggested. On the contrary, insisting Apple is equivalent to 3rd parties is itself "unfair" as well as wrong.

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