Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 116 posts

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#81

Post by abc-xyz »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #67
abc-xyz wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile in a China, foreigners (white/black people) are being kicked out of their homes and forced to sleep on the street, restaurants (including a McDonald’s) are refusing to serve foreign customers, foreigners are refused entry to malls, foreigners are unable to access important government-issued apps, etc. Asians aren’t the only ones affected.

The original comment did say it was only one example. But I'm a bit concerned about the tone of this response - we strive to prevent discrimination just because discrimination is bad, not as some kind of reciprocal favor to the Chinese government.

But we should also strive not to cherry-pick what kind of discrimination to report just because a specific country is good at crying racism. The discrimination against Asians (as people tend to assume any Asian they see is from China) was heavily reported and condemned by the press. Meanwhile discrimination against other groups of people (which has been far worse for e.g. foreigners staying in China) has been largely ignored in comparison.

Also, if governments had done their job and prevented all travel to/from China (as well as all countries that refused to implement similar restrictions) in the beginning, then we likely wouldn’t be dealing with a pandemic right now, and people wouldn’t have been discriminated against (more than usual that is). I’d say in the beginning (not anymore) it was also justified to be wary of anyone believed to be Chinese since there was a high chance that they recently been to China or had close contact with someone who had been (since Chinese tend to stay together when abroad).

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#82

Post by zvrba »

arp242 wrote: post #53
zvrba wrote: post #33

Unfortunately, it's only advisory. The government should set up a 5000 NOK (at least) "traveling fine" per person, and obligatory quarantine ("home" confinement in state-provided guarded quarters) upon entry. THAT would discourage people from traveling. So those who MUST travel can plan ahead and know what they're up to, the rest will give up. AFAIK, insurance companies announced that they'll refuse travel-insurance…

So rich people will shrug it off and travel anyway? What about the poor people who MUST travel? What if a family member is dying in another country? Just make a case-by-case judgement. Holidays are clearly stupid, but there are plenty of much more valid reasons to travel.

> So rich people will shrug it off and travel anyway?

Rich people wouldn't just hand-wave away obligatory quarantine on return. It'd make them think twice whether they MUST travel.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#83

Post by Kiro »

n0rge wrote: post #80
Kiro wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have seen many restaurant employees not wearing a mask correctly or at all Compared to 0% mask usage in Norway.

> Compared to 0% mask usage in Norway. That is factually incorrect. I see several people wearing masks, at least in Oslo. Both on the subway, but also people working in grocery stores etc.

Norway still has no mask mandate and is even recommending against it (similar to other Scandinavian countries). Comparing Norway and France and complaining about mask usage in France is just strange in that context:

> There is a reason that France and Norway do not have the same numbers, French people are pretty bad at taking the covid19 measures seriously. [...] I have seen many restaurant employees not wearing a mask correctly or at all

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#84

Post by pokepim »

abc-xyz wrote: post #81
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment did say it was only one example. But I'm a bit concerned about the tone of this response - we strive to prevent discrimination just because discrimination is bad, not as some kind of reciprocal favor to the Chinese government.

But we should also strive not to cherry-pick what kind of discrimination to report just because a specific country is good at crying racism. The discrimination against Asians (as people tend to assume any Asian they see is from China) was heavily reported and condemned by the press. Meanwhile discrimination against other groups of people (which has been far worse for e.g. foreigners staying in China) has been largely…

Oh so that explains huge rise in anti asian racism? Like when people beat up Malaysians or Koreans because they look Chinese? FFS what is wrong with you racists?

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#85

Post by arp242 »

devdas wrote: post #59
arp242 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So rich people will shrug it off and travel anyway? What about the poor people who MUST travel? What if a family member is dying in another country? Just make a case-by-case judgement. Holidays are clearly stupid, but there are plenty of much more valid reasons to travel.

If a family member is dying, skip the event.

What a unempathic remark. I missed the funeral of my uncle several years ago due to circumstances and the hurt was very real.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#86

Post by speedgoose »

tedk-42 wrote: post #61
speedgoose wrote: post #45

I'm right now in a Norwegian plane to come back from France to Norway. There is a quarantine since midnight, which is a good thing. There is a reason that France and Norway do not have the same numbers, French people are pretty bad at taking the covid19 measures seriously. I'm not thinking about the government but the population in general. It's a bit frustrating because it's not very difficult to be careful. I have…

Wow. Just wow. You claim French people aren't taking covid measures seriously, yet you are behaving as a potential human carrier of the virus by travelling abroad. And you have the nerve to complain about people coughing on the plane...

The rules are simple to follow. Traveling was allowed.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#87

Post by speedgoose »

lars wrote: post #68
tedk-42 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Just wow. You claim French people aren't taking covid measures seriously, yet you are behaving as a potential human carrier of the virus by travelling abroad. And you have the nerve to complain about people coughing on the plane...

If you talk to Norwegians about Norwegians, you'll discover that we're very good at patting ourselves on the back. You might say that we're one of the best countries in the world when it comes to patting ourselves on the back.

I'm actually French. But I agree that Norwegian are good at patting themselves on the back.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#88

Post by speedgoose »

Kiro wrote: post #83
n0rge wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compared to 0% mask usage in Norway. That is factually incorrect. I see several people wearing masks, at least in Oslo. Both on the subway, but also people working in grocery stores etc.

Norway still has no mask mandate and is even recommending against it (similar to other Scandinavian countries). Comparing Norway and France and complaining about mask usage in France is just strange in that context: > There is a reason that France and Norway do not have the same numbers, French people are pretty bad at taking the covid19 measures seriously. [...] I have seen many restaurant employees not wearing a ma…

I was thinking more about the rules to follow. I agree that it's weird to complain about mask usage in France when Norwegian do not use them in Norway. But overall, I feel like Norwegian business are a bit more careful. As an example home office in Norway is recommended until next year while France recommends to wear masks at work (except at your office). Which many people in France do not do.

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#89

Post by arp242 »

NamTaf wrote: post #76
arp242 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel this is rather unempathic towards the previous poster. Human contact – affection and love in particular – are primary human needs, and they can't just be handwaved away. You may be reasonably comfortable in your situation (as much as this entire situation gets, anyway) but not everyone is so lucky. This is not "special-case snowflakes", just a recognition that people, their circumstances, and experiences great…

I don't disagree with you that human contact is important for a great deal many of people. However, cynically speaking, death and debilitating, potentially long-lasting illness from Covid also can't be hand-waved away. It's an issue of balancing the needs of the many against the needs of the few, and unfortuantely in this instance the actions of individuals can cause incredibly amplified levels of suffering for a gre…

> it is absolutely, demonstrably true that individuals can cause a 'chain of deaths'

"Can" is not the same as "will". I already said "when done with with appropriate precautions and care" in my previous comment.

The thing is, just because there are some Oz bogans returning from their coma drinking holiday in Bali acted in an idiotic fashion doesn't mean we should prevent everyone else on the planet from travelling at all, no matter the personal circumstances. Lockdowns also cause real harm, see e.g. [1], although the full effects won't be known for certain with time.

"There's enough people not doing the right thing for it to cause major problems" with many things: cars, guns, knives, etc. It's always a matter of balancing different interests and trade-offs.

> Lastly, it's very obviously false to claim that a hard lockdown cannot help, see New Zealand as a shining counter-example. Extremely aggressive lockdowns and widespread testing can indeed control it.

That's not exactly that I said either. What is your long-term plan with this? Institute a draconic hard lockdown every time there is a single case? It doesn't seem that any of this is just going to disappear from the world any time soon, if ever. It's not a solution, just a stop-gap measure (which is what people have been saying pretty much from the get-go).

The real question is what will happen in 6 months, a year, or 2 years time with New Zealand. Remember, we've managed to eradicate exactly one disease in the history of humanity, and that was a far more serious one, although we've been close with Polio for years.

New Zealand had great success in the short term (being a fairly sparsely populated island more than 3 hours removed from any other significant landmass probably helped with that), but you can't lock everyone indoors every time there is a new case and it's almost certain this will happen unless NZ commits to a long-term multi-year border lockdown.

[1]: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...

Re: Norway advises citizens to avoid all travel abroad

#90

Post by gregorymichael »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #22

Thoughts: Aerosol covid risk is highly likely, meaning that air travel requires N95 masks and goggles (eyes are a known vector). If you are outdoors, dilution of virions happens quickly, especially in windy conditions. UV helps denature RNA quickly as well. Indoor risk can be greatly mitigated with room air purifiers, but they have not been deployed because the WHO hasn’t acted on aerosol risk. (albeit, the deploymen…

Agreed that air travel would seem to be high-risk given airborn transmission.... but why aren't we seeing it? Seems like the easiest transmission to trace -- someone takes a plane, tests positive, contact everyone who was on the same plane. But I haven't seen a documented case over the last five months of "one person a plane infects 20 others..."

It confounds my mental model of how this virus is spread. Any idea what's going on there?

Post reply on HN