Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure • Hacker News Board

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#61

Post by shadowgovt » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

Threeve303 wrote: post #19

Abolishing the police combined with the protests (or riots) and the move against the NRA creates a very uncomfortable environment for probably half of the United States. All in an election year no less. Does no one remember 2000,2004 and 2016? Perhaps the DNC could write a book called “How to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory”

But it's an uncomfortable environment happening on the incumbent's watch. That doesn't say much positive about the incumbent's ability to lead, and suggests new leadership is in order.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#62

Post by throwaway29102 » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #16

collyw wrote: post #2

Was anyone surprised by this? Defund / Abolish the police sound like the stupidest ideas ever.

I know you may be unwilling to entertain the opposite point of view, but it doesn't necessarily sound like a "stupid idea" to friends/families/cultures who have lost members to murder by police (at varying points on the scale from negligence to depraved heart to purposeful to premeditated), especially in the case for mere "defunding", which is thoughtless to call a "stupid idea" out of hand, since the argument that s…

Reforming policing and law enforcement is not a stupid idea, but the “Defund the police” messaging shuts down thoughtful conversation and alienates allies.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#63

Post by happytoexplain » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

Threeve303 wrote: post #19

Abolishing the police combined with the protests (or riots) and the move against the NRA creates a very uncomfortable environment for probably half of the United States. All in an election year no less. Does no one remember 2000,2004 and 2016? Perhaps the DNC could write a book called “How to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory”

You should be aware that I've talked to liberals in rural areas who feel physically threatened by far-right rhetoric. I.e. the "the only good democrat is a dead democrat" video, conservatives guarding voting locations with guns, the president encouraging both these examples, etc. A couple of them have taken up gun ownership specifically because of this fear. I absolutely sympathize with both sides, but being "very uncomfortable" is nowhere near one-sided.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#64

Post by shadowgovt » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

kevin_b_er wrote: post #49

dleslie wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider looking in, it seems to me like reducing the scope of responsibility , and increasing accountability, of your police forces would be a boon to public safety.

We've tried to hold police accountable for murder. Charging them results in incidents like the entire police force rallying behind the one and just not doing their job anymore. And nearby police refusing to do their duty as well. This happened in Atlanta. You can't even bring charges against a cop, let alone make it to a trial, without horrendous outcry and mass refusal to do their job. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17…

> Charging them results in incidents like the entire police force rallying behind the one and just not doing their job anymore

... which could be considered a win for the section of America that the police oppress.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#65

Post by adjkant » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #51

adjkant wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're falling for the straw man here. A quick Google of the phrase yields many nuanced results with plans that sound very much in line with your prescriptions: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/12/21283813/g...

I dont think I am, and reading thought the that story reinforced my statement "There is also a over riding belief that criminality is 100% related to systemic racism and poverty " as most of the commentary is about defunding the police and replacing that with some kind of social programs (aka socialism) under the belief that the reason people commit crime is solely do to economic hardship There belief is if we give p…

This is incredible stretching + straw man to frame this as a political boogey-man (socialism).

Do you consider EMT's socialist? They are non-police first responders. Why not make more departments like this to address the massive over-jurisdiction of police responsibility?

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#66

Post by adjkant » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

jkingsbery wrote: post #36

adjkant wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the radical changes being proposed have their own problems I'd like to point out that none of said changes have been implemented anywhere in the US in any meaningful way. Save some minor defunding, I know of no locale who has transferred any responsibility away from the police, which is one of the main roads to abolition. As another poster said, this is a very clear straw man. CHAZ was a result of protesting and an…

Fair point - you're right that the suggested policies have not been implemented in a meaningful way. My point was that some relatively minor changes (de facto abandoning neighborhoods as in CHAZ, changes to bail laws in NY being two examples) have led to some pretty drastic (negative) changes to safety.

Where have bail laws caused any issue in NY? As a resident I haven't encountered any such issues.

I wouldn't call "abandoning a neighborhood" a minor change either. It seems clear to me it's very much a calculated political move to do that so people can do exactly what you did - point and say "well we need police, look what happened without them". This should have no bearing on reform laws and abolition steps.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#67

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

badRNG wrote: post #25

hartator wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Abolish the police” is a scale Words have meaning though. No one on the political board is against reforms but “abolish”, “defund”, or “shut down” mean what it means.

"Let's move funds from police departments to public health infrastructure, and additionally, use remaining funding on accountability mechanisms" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue at a protest.

The dichotomy between what rolls off the tongue at a protest and what is an implementable policy is exactly the problem.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#68

Post by shadowgovt » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

thatsfine wrote: post #26

elil17 wrote: post #10

“Business owners describe a harrowing experience of calling for help and being left all alone.” No one advocating defunding the police was saying it would be good for business owners. The point of the whole movement is that police protect the rich and powerful at the expense of everyone else.

Then the businesses will leave and the local economy will suffer. Those with little will have less. Those with enough to start over elsewhere will leave. This phenomenon is called "blight". Good luck Seattle.

As long as Amazon and MSFT are mixed into the economy, Seattle barely needs luck. Not when it has that much tech cash blowing through it.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#69

Post by dleslie » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:34 PM UTC

kevin_b_er wrote: post #49

dleslie wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider looking in, it seems to me like reducing the scope of responsibility , and increasing accountability, of your police forces would be a boon to public safety.

We've tried to hold police accountable for murder. Charging them results in incidents like the entire police force rallying behind the one and just not doing their job anymore. And nearby police refusing to do their duty as well. This happened in Atlanta. You can't even bring charges against a cop, let alone make it to a trial, without horrendous outcry and mass refusal to do their job. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17…

Where I am we have many levels of public safety enforcement; I've heard that in the USA there's a lot less variety in policing?

Ie, bylaws are enforced by armed and armoured officers who have full power to arrest.

Is that true? It seems to me that dividing the forces would help to break their unified defensive behaviour.

Re: Abolish the Police? Survivors of the Chaos in Seattle Aren’t So Sure

#70

Post by basch » Fri, Aug 07, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #45

goda90 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Reform public safety" works though

Has less punch, and we're not talking about restructuring fire departments.

Is the goal to be as polarizing as possible, or to persuade people on the fence to come over to the party?