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The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

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Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#331

Post by saagarjha »

aeurielesn wrote: post #303
admax88q wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An operating system that actually empowered you would give you the tools and options to prevent that, while also letting you run whatever software you desired. I will never understand people's desire to be handcuffed by Apple. Give me control over my own device god damn it.

Rest assured that despite the somehow surprisingly recent blind support for Apple here, there are people too that want to own our devices. I can just hope that the EU is successful in stopping all of Apple's trickeries ranging from 2.5mm headset jacks, ports, OS slow downs, mysterious battery underperformance, app store, the list just goes on.

> I can just hope that the EU is successful in stopping all of Apple's trickeries ranging from 2.5mm headset jacks, ports, OS slow downs, mysterious battery underperformance

Entirely unrelated, and it's 3.5 mm by the way.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#332

Post by scarface74 »

avianlyric wrote: post #272
habitue wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not really an apt comparison because the commitment to a movie theater is pretty minimal. If you spend $1000 on a phone, you're stuck there for a while. Most of these issues don't become immediately obvious right when you buy the phone either, it's things that might take you a few years to realize are happening (if ever). Additionally, the network/ecosystem effects might make it such that you are really disin…

Would a better comparison be a cruise ship? You pay thousands to board, and you literally can’t leave at will. While you’re aboard you can only purchase food, drink and entertainment from the cruise company. I don’t think a cruise ship would ever allow competing companies to provide those services. I’m personally a little mixed on the App Store. I don’t a have fundamental issue with the App Store model, and as an App…

How is Spotify and especially Netflix being harmed? If I search for a movie on either my iPhone, iPad, or AppleTV and the movie is available on Netflix, I’m told that I can watch it for free instead of being guided toward Apple’s movie store.

Spotify whined for years that they couldn’t stream music to the Apple Watch or download music to the Watch. Apple allowed third party integration over a year ago. Pandora added the feature - Spotify didn’t.

Spotify also doesn’t allow in app purchases so Apple doesn’t get a cut.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#333

Post by chipotle_coyote »

scarface74 wrote: post #170
ajconway wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything Apple is doing is helping make a better app store for me. I would prefer paying for Netflix right from the iPhone. It would be great to have torrent apps (they have legitimate use-cases). I would love to run qemu on my powerful iPad Pro. Apple does not allow any of that.

You can pay for Netflix right on the phone. You can go to https://netflix.com You can also buy an Android phone like 85% of the rest of the world.

Eh, I think this is one of the two points where the case against Apple's App Store model is the strongest. Not allowing applications to use third party in-app purchase systems is weakly defensible, but they not only don't allow that, they not only don't allow you to load an online store in a web view, they not only don't allow you to link to an online store that will open in Safari, the App Store terms literally do not allow you to mention the existence of other online stores.

There are arguments to be made -- and they're made in these comments -- that the App Store is a net benefit for consumers, but it is really, really hard to make the case that users somehow benefit from this.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#334

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #307

I am a big Apple fan, but seriously, you guys are bending yourselves into pretzels to make up excuses for Apple. we already know what a market without a mandatory App Store looks like because it is like that for the Mac. I still prefer buying apps through Apple’s store. Due to safety, ease of use etc. But I am happy alternatives exist when I need them. They could follow a similar model for iPhone where non-Apple stor…

An F-Droid equivalent for iOS would be awesome.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#335

Post by judge2020 »

pjc50 wrote: post #195
osrec wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, what?! Tiktok grabs your IMEI number, amongst numerous other things and sends them back to the mother ship. Not saying that other platforms don't collect data, but Tiktok is known for being a whole other level spyware. If Apple was truly trying to protect consumers, there's no way it would allow it.

Lots of apps do that. Which permission set does getting the IMEI require on iOS?

The only legitimate way is via private entitlements, which require you be either Apple or perhaps a carrier that works with Apple to be on the iPhone https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24014412

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#336

Post by jagged-chisel »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #307

I am a big Apple fan, but seriously, you guys are bending yourselves into pretzels to make up excuses for Apple. we already know what a market without a mandatory App Store looks like because it is like that for the Mac. I still prefer buying apps through Apple’s store. Due to safety, ease of use etc. But I am happy alternatives exist when I need them. They could follow a similar model for iPhone where non-Apple stor…

I fear the inevitable end down that path lies people who bought an iDevice, enabled alternative stores, were duped/hacked/otherwise-invaded, visited a Genius only to be told Apple won’t help them, and then lawsuits against Apple for their trouble.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#337

Post by Someone »

habitue wrote: post #238
DenisM wrote: post #118

The local cinema has an exclusive right on selling popcorn within its own walls. Far from being the only game in town, this cinema represents only 25% of the market and thus does not qualify for the Sherman Act definition of "monopoly". Punters, however, believe that once they enter the establishment they are now in the clutches of the monopoly, and so demand competing popcorn stands and reject the suggestion of walk…

This is not really an apt comparison because the commitment to a movie theater is pretty minimal. If you spend $1000 on a phone, you're stuck there for a while. Most of these issues don't become immediately obvious right when you buy the phone either, it's things that might take you a few years to realize are happening (if ever). Additionally, the network/ecosystem effects might make it such that you are really disin…

I think most people agree with it not completely being an apt comparison, but any judgment on this would have to draw a line between ‘allowed’ and ‘not allowed’ (without saying “Apple and a Google can’t do X”, either explicitly or implicitly, because that, rightfully, would not hold up in court), and doing that is hard.

For example, taking your “If you spend a significant amount on a phone, you're stuck there for a while” as a requirement for ‘not allowed’, Apple could start renting out phones instead of selling them.

They also could stop selling third-party apps, instead opting to buy them from third parties and selling them on to consumers or renting them out, as they already do with Apple Arcade. I think any solution would have to keep that in the ‘not allowed’ category, but it would result in a situation similar to that of IBM, which used to (possibly still does) sell CPU upgrades ‘over the air’, disallowing others to do so, or Tesla, which sells software for their cars that way (and, likely, many other companies). Should those be disallowed, too? If not, why not?

And yes, you don’t need monopolies or cartels to get an imperfect market, but if you don’t have monopolies or cartels, you can’t use existing laws on monopolies or cartels to correct that, so what should you use?

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#338

Post by scarface74 »

skuthus wrote: post #87

If you purchase the hardware for the product, no company should be able to stop you from installing whatever you like on the product.

Like in consoles for the past thirty years?

Why is it the government’s responsibility to stop you from buying a device that doesn’t fit your needs when you had an option.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#339

Post by nodamage »

627467 wrote: post #297
nodamage wrote: post #237

I am not sure why people continue to redefine the word "monopoly" to the point where it becomes meaningless. Claiming that Apple has a "monopoly" on app sales on its own devices might be technically true but is not a meaningful statement when there are plenty of alternatives to Apple devices on the market. It is about as meaningful as claiming a gas station has a "monopoly" on gas sales in a three block radius , or t…

Another poster already mentioned that legal definition varies. And not only that. It's not that it's "wrong" or illegal to be a monopoly. It's what you do with those powers. Natural (and legal) monopolies exist and are regulated so that there's a perceived net benefit to society for having them. The EU will investigate is (to Europeans) Apple's monopoly is net beneficial to them. And I imply to agree with labeling Ap…

> And I imply to agree with labeling Apple a monopoly precisely because, unlike the gas station on your example, a iPhone user cannot drive 3 miles to buy Spotify without having to pay Apple's 30% fee.

They can choose a non-Apple phone. There is an alternative product on the market.

Re: The App Store is a monopoly: Here's why the EU is correct to investigate Apple

#340

Post by wlesieutre »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #320
wlesieutre wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond the security of not giving our credit cards, and the convenience of not having 8 different game updater/launcher clients, Apple’s App Store policies also limit 3rd party software’s ability to fuck up my devices in a myriad of ways. If they’re forced to open up to 3rd party stores, I hope they can do it in a way that prevents Adobe from running 8 background processes to make sure my license is current and there…

You can run third party apps and Steam on macOS-equipped laptop computers just fine. Why it should be any different on pocket or tablet iOS computers?

I appreciate that iOS does not allow software to require this.

Yes you can avoid the giant mess of 3rd party launchers on Mac, but only by writing off huge swaths of the software market. Want to run Photoshop? You get to have the Creative Cloud client.

The current state of iOS software is that I never have to go into Task Manager and see what junk has inserted itself as a startup item, whether anything will break if I don't want its update/license client running in the background, or worry about whether it really quits when I quit it or tries to stay resident in the system tray.

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