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Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#141

Post by Zenst »

toohotatopic wrote: post #136
Zenst wrote: post #118

Always irks me how the media use the term "hackers" as some usurped terminology to describe criminal acts using technology. For me, it is like calling burglars a locksmith - that don't happen and yet we see the word "hacker" used by the media to describe criminal acts so far removed from the words original meaning that it just pains me and i'm sure many others. More so when the populus definition of that word now par…

The meaning of all words changes. It would be ironic if the meaning of the word hacker would be unchangeable, impenetrable.

> The meaning of all words changes. It would be ironic if the meaning of the word hacker would be unchangeable, impenetrable.

Hats off, brilliantly put and the whole aspect that the word hackers got hacked is one that I'll remember with a smile upon this subject. Thank you for that perspective - I'll think better for it.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#142

Post by gdy »

AlexC04 wrote: post #138

Other than Russia, does any other nation state have a major problem with NATO? Is there any reason to be opposed to the existence of NATO other than: "I'd really like to invade country X, but can't because it's mean retaliation by x,y,z & n"

You mean reasons like being invaded or bombed by the NATO or NATO members?

Or like NATO's Supreme Commander in Europe giving an order to attack your country's paratroopers [0]?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark#Pristina_Internat...

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#144

Post by runarberg »

jeswin wrote: post #133
runarberg wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you sure it is a nation. NATO is by no means an uncontroversial entity. Millions of peace activists—including my self—would love to see it abolished. Although I do admit, the content of the fake news articles seem a little crude to be coming from peace activists. Personally I would post simple truthful anti-NATO, anti-military, and anti-nuclear weapons propaganda if I had the will to break into news web sites…

> Millions of peace activists—including my self—would love to see it abolished. I wonder how Europe will respond when the next Crimea happens? Or if Taiwan gets attacked. It's a real question, and I'd love to hear from a peace-activist. I'd bet Europe will do nothing. Merkel wouldn't even openly criticize China for stripping away democracy from Hong Kong. European models work well in a world without dictatorships. Bu…

We are speaking very much out of topic. The fact that I’m personally against NATO adds nothing in the debate on whether a nation state was behind these attacks. But lets entertain this anyway[1].

Crimea was annexed by a militaristic nation from a smaller less—but still quite—militaristic nation. Ukraine is neighbored to the west with supporting European nation—some with a really big military, and even nuclear weapons. None of those were able—or even willing—to stop the annexation. In this instance these armies were useless.

China annexed Tibet in the 50s and it wasn’t stopped. What makes you think Taiwan would be any different? China is a dictatorial power that is committing a genocide against a religious minority in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. It is not stopped. What makes you think Hong Kong would be any different?

Please note that invasions, and wars are not the only ways to act against human rights violations. There is also sanctions and boycotts. This was particularly effective to stop the South African apartheid. But alas, the current world powers are unwilling to apply even that to try to stop China from their human rights violations.

---

1. Even though I’ve had this conversation dozens of times, and the idea of military is so engraved into people that the idea that we don’t need it—or worse is harmful—is too alien for people to even contemplate.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#145

Post by ghthor »

adventured wrote: post #116
jessaustin wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2019_United_States_ai... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Civil_War_(2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war

While I'm an advocate of the US entirely removing itself militarily from the Middle East, none of those properly qualify against the parent's point. The parent referred to starting wars. The first one doesn't qualify at all. The US and NATO have intervened in the two civil wars (along with numerous other countries; with France recently pleading with the US to remain in Syria). It's an overreach to claim the US starte…

It's likely that the US intelligence was involved in stoking the flames of civil war as a cover to make a military intervention publicly palatable.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#146

Post by 082349872349872 »

gdy wrote: post #130
josh2600 wrote: post #97

Disinformatziya. No document I have ever read covers this topic in more detail than this briefing by Peter Pomerantsev, author of “Nothing is real and everything is possible.” https://imrussia.org/media/pdf/Research/Michael_Weiss_and_Pe... This briefing, which is held in the library of Congress, is where I first heard the term “fake news” in 2014. It’s a stunning contextualization of what has been happening in the la…

Is it worth reading? Anything different from the CIA's PsyOps?

Unlikely to differ much, at least as of mid-twentieth century practice:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48612/48612-h/48612-h.htm

> "The lower down the echelon, the nearer the armies of the world came to standardizing psychological warfare organization. They did this for the same reason that they all organize into regiments instead of centuries, cohorts, or tribes. Modern war is a self-standardizing process if the enemy experience is to be copied, enemy techniques improved, allied assistance accepted, and military practice kept up to world standards. Psychological warfare units needed printing and radio sections; to service these sections they all needed intelligence and analysis offices; to distribute their materials they all needed agents and liaison. Black propaganda organization varied more than did white, but it was amazing to Americans, uncovering Japanese subversive-operations units, to see how much the Japanese organization resembled their own."

(White propaganda is material one admits one has written. Black propaganda is material one claims someone else has written. Both go back to well before the last century. Linebarger has historical notes, with examples going back thousands of years. Having been one of the people who "lost china", Linebarger also offers some opinions on why the communist propaganda was more effective than the capitalist in that case.)

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#147

Post by runarberg »

AlexC04 wrote: post #138

Other than Russia, does any other nation state have a major problem with NATO? Is there any reason to be opposed to the existence of NATO other than: "I'd really like to invade country X, but can't because it's mean retaliation by x,y,z & n"

Not just nation states, but plenty of citizens—in and out of NATO member states—have plenty of reasons to have quite a few problems with NATO, and other military alliances, and any military, and state supported violence in general.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#148

Post by 082349872349872 »

toohotatopic wrote: post #136
Zenst wrote: post #118

Always irks me how the media use the term "hackers" as some usurped terminology to describe criminal acts using technology. For me, it is like calling burglars a locksmith - that don't happen and yet we see the word "hacker" used by the media to describe criminal acts so far removed from the words original meaning that it just pains me and i'm sure many others. More so when the populus definition of that word now par…

The meaning of all words changes. It would be ironic if the meaning of the word hacker would be unchangeable, impenetrable.

Russia's been having too much fun with the whole "russian hacker" thing (unfortunately with the new semantics). The main tv channel even broadcast a dance number on the theme (to the tune of "Jamaica"):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrH8xyJG4rc

At least the meaning of "hacker" is now a somewhat-useful sibboleth, distinguishing between the old school and the poseurs? I may be optimistic, but I'm confident true hackers will always eventually learn the true semantics, when they start learning about their antecedents.

Re: Hackers post fake stories on real news sites 'to discredit NATO'

#149

Post by sobellian »

hnarn wrote: post #114
umvi wrote: post #67

USA itself is already souring on NATO, no hackers needed. Many in the USA are tired of being criticized for being the "world police" yet the same critics also scream when the USA starts pulling its military personnel out of their country (like Germany, most recently). I say Europe should use their own money to build their own Navy and Air Forces to protect their own interests and make their own trade and travel route…

Unfortunately for you and the rest of Americans that feel this isolationist tendency, your country will be a part of the world whether you like it or not. A modern conflict that does not involve the US is not the same thing as a modern conflict that does not affect the US. Also, your opinion of Europe doesn’t seem founded in reality. Since when does European nations not have their own standing armies, and since when…

> since when are American army resources used to protect European borders and shipping routes? And from who?

Are you serious? We spent half of the 20th century risking nuclear holocaust because we wanted to curb Soviet expansion into Europe. Many Americans still have family that were drafted and sent across the ocean to West Germany.

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