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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

941–950 of 1001 posts

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#941
post #889
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I fundamentally don't like UBI because, like other forms of welfare, it makes the poor ever more reliant on the government without incentive to become self-reliant. I'm a strong believer in self-reliance. I think solutions that tackle poverty should have a path to self-reliance in there. Current welfare programs reward continued reliance and punish self-reliance (i.e. government benefits yanked if you try to suppleme…

UBI is a payment for everything you give up to society. Where do you think all that property everybody respects came from? Who does that system deserve to continue?

UBI is not a giveaway, it's a payment that's long overdue.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#942
post #889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fundamentally don't like UBI because, like other forms of welfare, it makes the poor ever more reliant on the government without incentive to become self-reliant. I'm a strong believer in self-reliance. I think solutions that tackle poverty should have a path to self-reliance in there. Current welfare programs reward continued reliance and punish self-reliance (i.e. government benefits yanked if you try to suppleme…

> Just like today, it doesn't matter how many government subsidies you get, the poor's standard of living will scale to their income until every penny is gone. Someone needs to teach the poorest how to live below means so you can save, invest, avoid expensive addictions and health problems, etc. and an unconditional check in the mail won't automatically bestow that knowledge. This is misleading. Psychologically speak…

> Money has a way of disappearing (loan interest, people who come after you because you owe them money, etc.) if you hold on to it, so the rational thing to do is to convert dollars to goods that help you immediately

That's largely just a roundabout way of stealing (if you consider defaulting on debts stealing, which I do in many cases). "If I frivolously spend my money before paying my debts, then I don't have to pay my debts!"

I have a lot of experience working with poor people in Maryland, primarily poor African American women (single moms). The vast majority immediately spend their money as you say, but I disagree they are spending the money on "goods that help [them] immediately". Some tried to pay bills, but were too ignorant to understand what they were paying for and why. They would send money to anyone that sent them a letter with scary red ink on it. Also, counter-intuitively, many of the poor I've worked with had the latest iPhones, huge TVs, cable/HBO, air jordans (super expensive shoes), and other luxuries I myself don't have. You could argue these are "psychological necessities" to keep them from falling into despair, but again, I disagree.

> The solution is to provide stability.

The state of Maryland provides free and/or heavily subsidized housing via HOC and free food via SNAP, yet the recipients of such programs I have worked with still frivolously spent cash on toys and luxuries (not to mention booze, cigs, and lotto) as soon as they got it and were in no way on a path to self-reliance. If free food and housing doesn't provide stability, I fail to see how UBI would (especially considering most UBI checks would be eaten as rent which is largely equivalent to HOC)

> The problem isn't that the poor are dumb or uneducated or something

That might not be the entire problem, but it is disingenuous to argue it is not even a component of the problem. Financial ignorance (and ignorance in general) is a huge factor in inter-generational poverty. I've worked with single African American women who had no idea where their money was going. When I helped them get their accounts in order, we found they were paying Comcast for cable despite not owning a TV, they were paying for all sorts of extraneous insurance and warranties they didn't need because the letters in the mail had predatory "amount due" stamps in red on disguising them as bills, etc.

Self reliance does not just magically happen because of "stability". Even a lot of middle class people are living borderline unsustainable lifestyles, where missing a paycheck would be catastrophic because they went way too far into debt for their .

Paying down debts in the optimal order to get on the path of long term savings is not something you can easily bootstrap yourself into without help. You need teachers and mentors for that.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#943

I like how the article pointed out the biggest economic problem I see in post-industrial society - instead of almost everyone being a small business owner, we have huge corporations reaping massive profits, and poor replaceable corporate drones barely making ends meet. That said, I completely disagree with the proposed solution of UBI and here's why. We humans have a rather nasty bug in our firmware: when we do not h…

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#944
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... The answer is that it's much simpler to send everyone a check. The rich person will pay more in taxes than the amount of their check, so it doesn't matter. Indeed, the arguments that we should do otherwise are to the benefit of the rich, because the proposed cutoff invariably comes somewhere in the middle income r…

>The answer is that it's much simpler to send everyone a check. That's an answer, not the answer. A similar question is: “how much should UBI pay per month?”, and a similar answer is that “it's much simpler to just pay gazillion dollars than spend time figuring it out”. After all, the only difference is the cost. IMO there's a proven balance in having a system (“bureaucracy”) to find out who need financial assistance…

> After all, the only difference is the cost.

Hum... No, on the case of paying everybody (with increased taxes) or just the poor there is no difference in cost or total distributed.

What you do lose is the hability to focus your help into an specific group. Every UBI proponent will tell you this is a positive, because governments just suck at this, but it's a very powerful politic tool.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. They could spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment. Even with UBI they could still end up hungry or homeless. Will we help them? Or will we say "you had your UBI, the rest is on you". This changes the morals of how we treat people in the worst times. I think it should be p…

The parent comment said "spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment". What do we do with the person that gets e.g. their 1000€, spends it on a night with champagne and then has nothing to eat or pay their rent? Too outlandish for you? How about if they spend it on a new TV instead of rent, a new smartphone or a couch? There's a reason why some people get into debt because of consumption: they don't pl…

Simple problem to solve. Give them their 1000€ a month daily at 33€ a day. If they blow it all, they are hungry that day but eat the next. With a debit card it shouldn't be too hard.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#946
I will give two quotes from Baudrillard -- UBI is great, but it won't solve the spiritual problems of the west, nor it's obsession with eliminating death -- a compulsion borne of a constant internal struggle with nihilism.

“Americans may have no identity, but they do have wonderful teeth.”

― Jean Baudrillard

“You have to try everything, for consumerist man is haunted by the fear of 'missing' something, some form of enjoyment or other. You never know whether a particular encounter, a particular experience (Christmas in the Canaries, eel in whisky, the Prado, LSD, Japanese-style love-making) will not elicit some 'sensation'. It is no longer desire, or even 'taste', or a specific inclination that are at stake, but a generalized curiosity, driven by a vague sense of unease - it is the 'fun morality' or the imperative to enjoy oneself, to exploit to the full one's potential for thrills pleasure or gratification.”

― Jean Baudrillard, The Consumer Society: Myths and Structures

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#947
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Because then you need to test for means, and that means you have to hire new bureaucracy to conduct those tests, and then pay their benefits and pensions and travel expenses, and then you need to hire additional bureaucracy to address occasional loopholes in your checks, and then 10-20-50-100 years later you're ba…

I hear this argument a lot but it makes no sense to me. Suppose UBI is $12k/year. Then as long as it costs less than $12k to identify a rich person, it’s cheaper to not pay the rich people than to pay everyone. In fact, we already have any agency that does this for most Americans called the IRS. The budget of the IRS is $12 billion, which comes out to about $100 per taxpayer. The cost of the IRS administering the tax…

You're forgetting that the citizens of the US are people, not robots. When everyone gets the same treatment, you get a feeling of unity and you don't divide society into "leeches" and "providers" based on who gets UBI and who doesn't. The UBI becomes part of what it means to be American.

Furthermore, you can solve the same problem just by increasing taxes on the rich. If you send every rich person $12k, but also tax them $12k more per year, the money spent/saved is exactly the same as not sending it to them in the first place. So this statement you made is false:

> This would make UBI a much cheaper program, so it would be easier to fit into the budget.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#948
post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

This implies that people with resources will not do better by and for themselves, which contradicts most of the soft policy that guides eg- lax capital gains, dividends, and estate taxes.

If scarcity was a driving force in creating the competition that capitalism deems necessary, then there would be no point in hoarding or passing down more wealth than could be spent in a lifetime. So, it's an obvious mistruth.

And if the price of all things will increase because some people are no longer starving and able to afford to pay more, perhaps that's a fair trade. We will optimize for more convenience, higher quality, and more novel products, then.

Perhaps this only illuminates how close people who feel they are doing well are to the people that take most of the prejudice for their lack of wealth. Maybe being a small business owner doesn't put you in the same world as Wal-Mart any more than being white and working class makes you basically equals to Elon Musk.

Perhaps it's the tide that lifts all boats and not how many have sunk around you.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#950
post #300

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

Were these cases people who would otherwise have engaged in some creative endeavour (music, programming, art, tinkering, whatever)? Or were they otherwise engaged in menial repetitive jobs that should probably be automated anyway? If the latter, what's wrong with them watching Netflix? We don't need every human to work. Also if I gained a perpetual stipend that covered my basic needs, you bet I'd take a couple of mon…

I have a controversial opinion. But every living human should work. Otherwise it is a drain on the planet Earth.

Yes if they just live to live and consume, we're just speeding up our extinction, and the rest of the Earth with us.

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