Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#131

Post by linkmotif » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

I wish someone would challenge the premise that a "basic income," a basic standard of life is something that can even be identified. I challenge the idea that people can point to some standard of living and say, "that is the basic standard of living that people, and we should provide people with that standard of living."

The problem is that Americans, and most societies in the West in general, have totally lost touch with basic human existence. For example, in New York right now, people are delivering pre-cooked, packaged food in single-use containers to poor people[0]. If you can't provide food for yourself, are we to assume that this is the standard level of living that you are entitled to? I wouldn't be surprised if many people say: "Yes, this is what people who can't provide for themselves need."

My opinion, however, is that sustaining people in this way is completely unsustainable, a form of terrorism on the environment. You can't just give people free endless takeout and say that that is the basic standard of living they need to advance in life. But that is how this is being done right now, because the people who think UBI makes sense, I find, are by and large the same people who consume prepared, plastic-packaged foods all the time. These people, largely, live unsustainable, intensely capitalism-based lifestyles, and think for some reason that it makes sense to bring the rest of the world into their divorced for nature-reality existence.

Giving people a "universal basic income" so they can live the destructive Western capitalist lifestyle is a plague on our species, human culture, and worst of all, on the environment.

[0] https://nypost.com/2020/07/29/free-city-meals-meant-for-need...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#132

Post by alpha_squared » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #79

I understand and agree with how a UBI will benefit those that are currently falling between the cracks and not receiving any assistance. I can also see the benefits of greatly simplifying the social security system. (If it was implemented in a way that was actually simple. i.e. no distinction between sick, unemployed, old, lazy) But I don't understand why people don't believe the UBI will just become the new definiti…

As I understand it, UBI isn't about making people feel better, it's about providing a floor for income. It would be intended to assist those who struggle to pay their bills and afford basic necessities. There are homes today that don't have internet because of financial reasons. Additionally, it could enable those who'd want to pursue entrepreneurial ventures but can't afford to go 2-3 months without a paycheck to do just that. All UBI would be doing is establishing a floor. Right now, that floor is zero and results in many very unfortunate situations.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#133

Post by staycoolboy » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

> I do think people radically underestimate the unforeseen consequences of a free guaranteed income

My irony alarm just exploded.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#134

Post by yarrel » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

xivzgrev wrote: post #72

Honest question - how does one prevent inflation with UBI? If the market price of an apartment is $500, and suddenly everyone gets UBI, the landlord would raise the price as much as he can, say $1000. People on UBI are in the same relative position as before. They still can’t get the apartment because there’s enough people who have the UBI plus something else and can pay $1000.

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2020/03/18/understandin...

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/20/16256240/m...

https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-...

https://basicincometoday.com/how-and-why-a-fed-financed-ubi-...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#135

Post by skybrian » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

unloco wrote: post #83

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

Most Americans will take the UBI and do good things with it, not quit or change their job. It will boost the lower tiers up a notch and allow people to explore better options, ie Music Teacher, but that is nothing but beneficial. People that dont like heavy work shouldnt be doing it. It will give workers a bit more power of choice, but that isn't something to be scared of. There will always be workers to fill those j…

On the margin, some people will retire earlier or work less. Financial independence becomes feasible for more people at a younger age. These are the same choices you might make if you have money. That doesn't seem like a bad thing, and it would be pretty hypocritical for those of us who can do it to deny it to others.

But it seems like there is some risk that young people who have never worked might not get in the habit of working? The ambitious will want more than just to barely get by, but I don't think we can entirely rule out a slacker lifestyle becoming popular. I think we should still try it and see, but the plan might need to be adjusted.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#136

Post by bijection » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

drummer wrote: post #62

UBI is extremely dangerous as long as governments exist. Take what China is doing with their citizen score and it's not hard to imagine what could go wrong. "...imagine how easy it would be for such a government that was also providing a basic income to its citizens to manipulate their citizens based on that basic income that they depended on. If they can deny citizens access to things like public transportation base…

Is there a meaningful difference between a government withholding basic income in a UBI world and a government fining away some traditional income in normal capitalism?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#137

Post by aahhahahaaa » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

Why give free school to everyone, libraries? Clearly a rich person doesn't need those either?

Public services should be public. There's extreme social value in equal access and you reduce an extreme amount of bureaucracy and debate in the process.

>If I got free money I wouldn’t increase spending, I would reduce work.

WE SHOULD ALL REDUCE WORK.

Sorry for the caps but we need to collectively get into this mindset. We're more productive than ever with very little to show for it. We've been having labor outright stolen from us for decades.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#138

Post by 3131s » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

This is the whole point of a UBI actually.

The garbage companies would have to pay more, but the result would be that instead of no garbage man, the garbage man now just works 20 hours a week and takes more vacations. And because this vital job is no longer as "sucky", other people have joined the profession too and also put in 10-20 hours a week thereby distributing this type of hard physical labor across a larger pool of people.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#139

Post by darcys22 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

blackflame7000 wrote: post #88

jay_kyburz wrote: post #79

I understand and agree with how a UBI will benefit those that are currently falling between the cracks and not receiving any assistance. I can also see the benefits of greatly simplifying the social security system. (If it was implemented in a way that was actually simple. i.e. no distinction between sick, unemployed, old, lazy) But I don't understand why people don't believe the UBI will just become the new definiti…

Exactly. The key to making people happier is not to give them money, but create more jobs that give people meaning and purpose in their lives.

I would argue that jobs that give meaning to life are the exception not the norm. There is a not insignificant portion of society that would quit their job today if they had any other option.

Hobbies and unpaid creative pursuits are more likely to bring meaning than employment in my opinion.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#140

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

alexmingoia wrote: post #82

Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... Milton Friedman long ago proposed a negative income tax to replace means-tested welfare programs. Essentially, people below a certain income threshold would receive money which scales to a maximum the closer their income approaches zero. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax I do think people radically…

> Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government...

The answer is that it's much simpler to send everyone a check. The rich person will pay more in taxes than the amount of their check, so it doesn't matter. Indeed, the arguments that we should do otherwise are to the benefit of the rich, because the proposed cutoff invariably comes somewhere in the middle income range, resulting in higher marginal rates on middle income people rather than higher income people.

In other words, a cutoff allows the rich to pay lower taxes in the amount of the money that had been going to people in the middle.