Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#521

Post by xorfish » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:18 AM UTC

laingc wrote: post #419

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

One of my best friends is an academic economist working in this space, so while I won’t pretend to be an expert, I have spent a goodly amount of time discussing this with one. With no disrespect intended to you personally, this policy you propose makes no sense. Without putting words in your mouth, it looks to me like “two things I as a progressive like the idea of”, rather than a coherent economic policy. Carbon tax…

Where do you get the unquestionably knowledge, that the poor will suffer the most from a carbon tax?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#522

Post by ratbum » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:18 AM UTC

Capitalism is destroying the planet; no amount of basic income will stop that.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#523

Post by zanny » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:26 AM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #518

A UBI seems to me like an overly complicated way to just give everybody a free food, cloths, shelter, electricity, internet, and medicine. Why don't we just make that stuff free. Every person can just go to a special Costco like store and spend x credits a month taking whatever they want. That way we can just make that stuff as efficiently as possible, rather than messing with the whole economy.

Because the logistics of government bodies trying to guarantee essentials while somehow getting them as efficiently as markets in optimal conditions can is anything but simple.

The IRS sent me a $1200 months ago via direct deposit in the bank account it already had on record for me. Setting up public bank accounts at post offices so every citizen has access and having the tax apparatus that already collects all your financial information reverse the process for 12-24k a year is extremely easy to implement compared to establishing entirely new branches of government.

There might be an argument that the food stamps program can be made universal for a fixed amount for everyone as a compromise position. IE you get 800 instead of 1k a month in UBI but get $200 on an EBT card to buy food with. But a UBI lets you simply abolish the bureaucracy of food stamps altogether.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#524

Post by turbinerneiter » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:27 AM UTC

tl;dr

In modern capitalism, a humans worth to society is determined by their ability to consume, not create.

I fully agree with the idea that currently our economy is constrained by demand, because people do not earn enough. I don't believe we can fix this by using an UBI, which would create an even worse power dynamic between rich and poor as well as working and non-working people, but by increasing labours share in generated profit.

See wage share: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Wage_share

We need to put more money in peoples hands, instead of shareholders and stock markets. And we need to use money to lift people from poverty, instead of using it generate real estate bubbles.

Send me a message if you have an idea how to do that ;)

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#525

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:27 AM UTC

rabidrat wrote: post #351

jonstaab wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with that is that if a huge number of people take that route and happily (let's assume) live their lives without working, they lose access to the ability to participate in a meaningful way in the economy by producing something of value; if they're not producing value, no one is going to value them, and they'll eventually be locked out of the new, smaller elite group that controls the means of produc…

I don't see how this is any different from the current group of "unskilled" workers who aren't valued (even if they are "essential"). At least with UBI they can live reasonable lives and create their own meaning, through community or art or activism or religion. Any of which are better outcomes than sacrificing most of their time on bullshit jobs which break their backs and/or their spirits.

It is year 2061. I live at the Universal Housing City 14 (or UHC14). Due to rises in housing prices and rent over the years we UBI receivers had to be relocated to these new cities. I was born here as my parents decided to abandon their jobs in favor of pursuing meaning in their lives. Now I can not leave this place. There is no way to earn an income, since everyone here is provided by the UBI and thus no way to pay for education. All of the unskilled labor was automated when UBI laws came to be and first people left factories empty. I am not qualified to do anything in the outside world.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#526

Post by habosa » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:27 AM UTC

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption.

I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic.

1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages.

2. Predators - individuals and companies will find a way to take your UBI check from you as fast as possible. We can see this in housing where some governments give poor people vouchers for rent. Those vouchers are targeted by slumlords who find a way to give you as little as possible for them. There will be rampant scams and bad behavior in areas where the UBI makes up a larger portion of total income.

3. Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. They could spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment. Even with UBI they could still end up hungry or homeless. Will we help them? Or will we say "you had your UBI, the rest is on you". This changes the morals of how we treat people in the worst times.

I wish all of the above wasn't true. But I just don't think America can handle UBI and I'm not sure how that's going to change.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#527

Post by akvadrako » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:28 AM UTC

g7r wrote: post #509

How employers would reason when their employees start getting UBI? "Hmm, I was paying my employees say $1000/mo that was barely enough to survive. Now government gives them $500/mo. That means that I can can subtract $500/mo from their salary".

Wages would probably go up under a UBI because workers don’t need to work as badly, giving them more negotiating power.

Your example only applies if there is no market for jobs.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#528

Post by jonplackett » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:30 AM UTC

So all we need is more and more growth? Screw the climate right? Just give everyone cash and they can buy buy buy!

I think universal income would be a positive thing but based on this explanation of why we need it I’m now not so sure

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#529

Post by philwelch » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:31 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #361

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

I don't see how a carbon tax on its own solves any environmental issue. By itself it just means it costs more to buy things without changing how they are actually produced & that production's environmental impact. A carbon tax might be used for remediation after the fact, which isn't as effective, but such remediation funding would leave little room to fund UBI. If you want the costs of products to "bake in" environm…

People respond to incentives. People don’t like to pay taxes and if they can save money by spending $10 to save $15 in taxes, they will. That’s the point.

Let’s say I own a power plant and I sell electricity to the power company for $X/kilowatt-hour. It turns out the best way for me to make a profit is to burn natural gas in my power plant because I make enough money per kilowatt-hour to afford fuel, and the economics of natural gas outperform nuclear and renewables. I can use renewables during the day well enough, but I’m not gonna buy a ton of batteries to store solar power to sell overnight when I can just burn natural gas instead.

As soon as I have to pay a carbon tax for burning natural gas, my incentives change. Do I build a nuclear plant? Batteries? A carbon capture system to plug into my existing natural gas plant? Or do I keep paying the carbon tax? If the carbon tax is high enough, I will absolutely change my system to save money. The same is true if I own a trucking company: I might buy more fuel efficient trucks, which helps a little, or maybe I become an early adopter of electric trucks, which helps a lot.

Most importantly, those grandstanding nincompoops in DC don’t have to figure out how to reduce carbon emissions. They just put a price on it, and all of a sudden every cold-blooded, cost-cutting bean counter in the country starts doing it for them.

There are lots of ways to do things carbon-neutral these days. The technology exists, or is very close to existing, to maintain our exact standard of living except carbon neutral. There’s just no reason to do so in terms of cost-efficacy because the downsides of carbon emissions aren’t priced in. A carbon tax changes that and provides a very real return on investment for change.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#530

Post by gorgoiler » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:31 AM UTC

Of all the things on my make the world right shopping list, I absolutely do not see UBI.

Renters need help. My priority would be housing rights. What I want is for the government to stop tiptoeing around and implement real regulation.

Minimum square footage per person. Minimum building standards to guarantee peace at home. Guaranteed rights, as a tenant, to remain in the property until you decide to leave. No more annual renewal fee stress when the estate agent threatens to replace you with someone (plucked from the free market) who will pay 3% more.

Regulation to prevent dense tenant battery farms. No more conversion of three bedroom homes (with two large living spaces) into six bedroom slums for common-licensed tenants. Oftentimes the kitchen is the only common living space and your bedroom has a lock on it. This is a horrible way to live.

It also drives down wages with a race to the bottom for lowest possible housing quality at the maximum possible price.

I’ve lived in — and seen my friends live in — various slums in the US and England over the years. In the very crowded rental markets of major cities and popular towns, tenants are treated like cattle, but without the animal rights.