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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#891
post #522

Capitalism is destroying the planet; no amount of basic income will stop that.

Capitalism has ended poverty at a faster rate in the past 20 years than anytime in history. Capitalism is why we have nice things. The destruction of the environment is more extreme in non-capitalist countries that are poorer. A clean environment is something that people value, they just value it less than basic survival -- which seems to make sense to me.

In fact, if UBI slows down growth and progress -- it will in fact do more damage to the environment than not having it.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#892
Let me start by saying, [citation needed].

I'm incredulous that an article which states, "Even if you're still doubtful you can see it's the least worst [sic] solution we have to make capitalism work in the 21st century." is getting this many upvotes. HN has a reputation as an evidence-valuing rational community that appreciates articulate arguments. I guess that these principles do not apply when we are talking about UBI (or when accusing Apple of business practices they do not engage in, apparently https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23995750)

It's obvious that the author doesn't have more than an introductory macroeconomics course under his belt. The article reads like something an idealistic first-year undergraduate might try to pass off. It is full of cliches and incredibly bold statements with no citations used to prop up a flimsy argument.

For example:

"[The increasing size of markets] is why wealth inequality soared when capitalism went global in the 20th century." The increasing size of markets may be a factor in inequality, but it is certainly not the only one. Also, a graph would be nice. Inequality was higher in the late 19th century and took a dip in the early-to-mid 19th century. Without seeing this data, it is foolish to make sure a sweeping generalization.

"If we can give companies overwhelming demand so they have to scale up production instead of spending all their money on advertising, we can have both happy companies making profit hand over fist, and happy consumers who get everything they desire." First, the phrases "Happy companies", "profit hand over fist", "happy customers", "everything they desire" sound like they were written by a 12-year-old. Second, money is an abstraction used to allocate goods from production to consumption. When production does not match consumption, this causes either excess inventory or shortages - neither of which are desirable, but both of which tend to resolve themselves quickly. One of the often-stated goals of UBI is to free workers from unfulfilling labor. However, labor is an essential factor in production, and by "freeing" labor, we will reduce production. Since consumption is equal to production, workers will not be able to magically "get everything they desire." In fact, they might get less.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#893

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why give free money to everyone? Clearly a rich person doesn’t need a monthly check from government... The answer is that it's much simpler to send everyone a check. The rich person will pay more in taxes than the amount of their check, so it doesn't matter. Indeed, the arguments that we should do otherwise are to the benefit of the rich, because the proposed cutoff invariably comes somewhere in the middle income r…

> The answer is that it's much simpler to send everyone a check. Seems even easier to increase the standard tax deduction we already have and are familiar with. Then you can increase tax rates to make sure those evil rich people don't see any benefit.

You can't buy food with a piece of paper that says you're supposed to get a tax deduction next year.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#894
I mean why is there not a single mention of inflation in this article? I thought for sure, since this was so high up on HN, it would be the most obvious obstacle to UBI.

It's so insane this isn't mentioned because we are living in a time of basically UBI. The govt is giving unemployed people astronomical amounts of money.

I have friends in the restaurant industry, they lost their jobs from COVID. Then, when restaurants started offering curbside, delivery or togo, they needed people again. But my friends said 'No" to their old jobs because they were making $900/week from unemployment. Same thing for Uber Drivers, and many more industries.

And guess what happens when the economy adjusts to the trillion-dollar bailout? Hyper-inflation. So all that money is going to be worth a fraction of what it was before.

And with all this UBI happening right now, guess what they do in their spare time? They get drunk and high and riot. That's what we've created with UBI. And when the other show drops, who's going to be left with the bill? Not me, I invested all my bailout money.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#895
post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

>>>rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive.

It's called supply and demand, nothing magical about it. The only thing magical is leftists thinking this won't happen.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#896
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

1 this exists and is way worse with wages. People are forced to work, and at mercy of their employers. UBI frees people from wage slavery. 2. This is no different than now. Endless scams- advertising, etc all the time to extract peoples money. Regardless of source. 3. Duck ups aren't going away. Under UBI they at least won't be at the mercy of beauracy and changing political will re funding social services. And peopl…

3. It also gives you an unlimited ability to "reset". If you fuck up, you're not stuck with working your way back from scratch. When the next UBI check comes in it'll give you a recurring bump to help you get back on track.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#897

I find it very sad that we live in a society where there appears to be no way of gracefully changing fundamental paradigms. Money was invented in a time of scarcity and it was a very useful tool then. In some situations it still is today, but for many things we have more than enough for everyone, so maybe those should be provided without the need to go through the money system. Anyway, I don't know what would work, b…

>I find it very sad that we live in a society where there appears to be no way of gracefully changing fundamental paradigms. That is a feature, not a bug. Society is incredibly complicated and is an intrinsically chaotic system resulting from the beliefs and actions of hundreds of millions of individuals. The system has generations of iterative 'fixes' to problems and with delicate balances negotiated and fought for…

The problem I see with the revolutions you mention is the people implementing those changes believe (or at least act like) their new system is perfect. I'm advocating precisely the opposite! I would like for people to view their system in terms of trade-offs and deliberately experiment with new ones and asses the results and not just in an incremental way, but also in radical ways. Because right now, all I see is a sort of headless chicken running around destroying everything with zero regards for the consequences.

Even the article's author doesn't appear to conceive of anything better than capitalism. The solution is to consume more! Really?

So I guess what I want is less of a religious view of the social systems and more of a engineering view.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#898
post #889
post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I fundamentally don't like UBI because, like other forms of welfare, it makes the poor ever more reliant on the government without incentive to become self-reliant. I'm a strong believer in self-reliance. I think solutions that tackle poverty should have a path to self-reliance in there. Current welfare programs reward continued reliance and punish self-reliance (i.e. government benefits yanked if you try to suppleme…

What about those unable to work, are disabled, stay at home parents, or otherwise unable to be self reliant?
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