Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#731

Post by prawn » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:07 AM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #283

dopylitty wrote: post #49

People don’t need money. People need basics like housing, food, and medical care. No UBI scheme is going to work in an economic system like the one in the U.S. that isn’t capable of providing those things. It’s not like there’s a shortage of food or shelter now and yet we still have homeless people while homes sit empty. We still have hungry people while farmers are destroying their crops. The economic system is the…

I agree. I bet everyone reading this has at one time or another met someone who is completely incapable of managing money at even simple levels. Or thinking ahead even. Not everyone can wisely use XX a month. Or even eat with it. Then what? The fixation on money is a little nearsighted imo. It didn't always exist. It's just a tool for determining access to good and services. What if everyone could get a healthy meal…

That would be my reservation also. Give people regular money and some subset of the community will still run a life gauntlet that is effectively poverty. Squalor, poor food choices, poor relationship or parenting choices. Compounded by mental illness. They're not secreted away, so what changes in your neighbourhood?

During this pandemic situation, many Australians are getting $750/w virtually no strings attached. I know of people bumming around the house waiting for their perception of the economy to improve, and I know of others working more than usual to bolster their bank account with the influx.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#732

Post by rbg246 » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:07 AM UTC

It's utterly disappointing to see the top voted story on hacker news is am economics story (which is great!) on such an interesting topic written by a developer who from reading from his introduction has an undergraduate level of knowledge of economics, surely we can do better for sources and expertise in subject matter.

And this is not personal against the author a brilliant blog post (but note it's a blog).

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#733

Post by zarathustreal » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:15 AM UTC

rbg246 wrote: post #732

It's utterly disappointing to see the top voted story on hacker news is am economics story (which is great!) on such an interesting topic written by a developer who from reading from his introduction has an undergraduate level of knowledge of economics, surely we can do better for sources and expertise in subject matter. And this is not personal against the author a brilliant blog post (but note it's a blog).

Try not to rely on appeals to authority, it’s not about where information comes from, it’s about the logical validity of that information. If you’re taking everything you read at face value that’s okay! Keep in mind that many people here are taking it into deep consideration and evaluating what is said based on its logical merit, who the author is does not play a role in that consideration. Regardless of whether the author is a scholar of economics or a homeless person, the content of the writing is all that matters. If it helps you can just pretend that it has no author

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#734

Post by prawn » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:22 AM UTC

spyckie2 wrote: post #457

aetherspawn wrote: post #449

How about we meet in the middle. If you can provide a receipt for accomodation/rent and utilities, you are eligible for the UBI up to the value of your accomodation and utility bills (with limits). The UBI can subsidise classes of certain foods up to a certain value if you keep the receipts, but can not subsidise confectionary, soft drinks, smokes and alcohol. Only fresh food, milk, etc. with a nationally recognised…

This balloons administrative costs and leaves rooms for loopholes - never underestimate the cost of having to patch policy loopholes. It also creates mini games around the UBI system, making it central in people's minds. Ideally you want UBI to be an afterthought, simple and clear, and let people focus on what they really want to focus on - their own work or life.

Makes me think - and ignore for a fact that this would never get over the line in the USA - what if it was only paid to a government debit card and funds on that card could only be spent directly, not withdrawn as cash. Further, they could only be spent on subscriptions - rent, utility, vehicle lease with built in mechanical support, health insurance. Try to remove a lot of the financial unpredictability that wrecks people (car breaking down, for example). Provide a clear monthly or live (digital) report of where the money was going. Of your $1k, $200 is x, $150 is y, $20 is z, etc. Build in budgeting/awareness to encourage people in the right direction.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#735

Post by op00to » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:26 AM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

UBI makes things slightly more expensive for the people who are comfortable and comparatively rich. So, sorry poors, you’re on your own!!

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#736

Post by sarellaza » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:27 AM UTC

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#737

Post by sarellaza » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:28 AM UTC

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#738

Post by Proziam » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:31 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

My biggest UBI fear is this.

UBI becomes the single biggest election issue. Politicians promising increases to get elected, and all the bad policy that stems from such motivations. This is then followed by an inevitable pullback at some point in the future, causing immense harm to everyone relying on every cent of their UBI (most people).

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#739

Post by sltkr » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:32 AM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #680

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

In my country everyone who is older than 65 (or so) gets AOW, a state pension. Which is €1200 per month. There are no conditions except for having lived (not worked) in the country for at least 40 years of the 65. This is basically UBI for elderly and it has been in place since the 1960s. None of the (theoretical) issues you named have been a problem. Do some elderly spend all their AOW on a slot machine as soon as i…

The important difference is that society doesn't need pensioners to work (in fact, retiring to free up jobs for younger people is often considered desirable), so the main concern around UBI, which is that it discourages people from working, does not apply.

In fact, the AOW age has been increased from the age of 65 (eventually it will be increased to 67) to ensure the ratio of working population to retired workers is large enough to keep the system sustainable. Even covering just two extra years was considered too expensive. Obviously extending the system by another 47 years would be a huge challenge.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#740

Post by zimbatm » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 11:33 AM UTC

Where does that money come from?

The US population has 199M adults[1]. Let's say a decent basic income is $40k. That's 8 Trillion that the government has to find every year.

The US federal tax revenue was of 3.86 Trillion last year[2]. Half of which comes from individual income, and another third from payroll taxes. This is before the effects that UBI will have on the economy.

Maybe my 10 minute research is wrong? It seems like a quite central piece to address in an article promoting UBI.

[1]: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=number+of+adults+in+th... [2]: https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/budget...