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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#41

Post by runawaybottle »

jc_811 wrote: post #30
runawaybottle wrote: post #13

Won’t it just be negated with increased cost of living? If people get 1000 a month free, you better believe that rent starts at 1000. The free money will never do what it’s supposed to do in the long run. It’s better to just give the actual service for free (healthcare, college, transportation).

Is that totally guaranteed though? It’s important to remember that the landlords as well will be getting the 1000$ UBI. So yes, there will be landlords starting their rent at $1000, but there will also be landlords who start lower because they too have become more enriched from the UBI and don’t need to squeeze the margins as much anymore.

Fair point, but if I had to counter I’d point to egregious wealth accumulation in our society, which is in it’s distilled form is just greed.

The greedy could siphon away most of the UBI, bringing us back to square one. UBI suffers from the assumption that we have a system with the right incentive structures. We kind of don’t from what I’m seeing.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#42

Post by thomasfromcdnjs »

DeonPenny wrote: post #28

I feel like this is the perfect example why everyone should at some point be required to start a business. Because some of these ideas stem from to many people not understand the economy in a real sense because they are always workers and see the world through that lens.

I like this idea! Stealing it.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#43

Post by kingbirdy »

> I’m a huge fan of capitalism and free trade, as laid out in Adam Smith’s genre defining book The Wealth of Nations.

The fact that he included an Amazon link to a book that came out over 200 years ago and is available on Project Gutenberg[0] certainly backs up his credentials as a "huge fan of capitalism".

[0] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#44

Post by _jahh »

phillpot wrote: post #20

GDP is a bad metric. The planet does not have unlimited resources to fuel unlimited growth.

these statements don't need to be mixed. GDP is bad because a hurricane raises GDP because you have to build a bunch of shit that got destroyed again. this is totally independent of resources and growth.

the split between quality of life and gdp and these variously with resource consumption is the issue.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#45

Post by dwighttk »

gniv wrote: post #19
bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

Or you just need to pay more for garbage disposal. In Zurich for example you pay per bag of garbage.

I have neighbors who barely get 90% of their garbage into their practically free trash cans.

I’m exaggerating a bit, but still...

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#46

Post by bluedevil2k »

crooked-v wrote: post #25
bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

> Now we have no garbage man and the wage would need to increase to find new people. To cover that, taxes go up. You're taking this as a given. Why? Remember that we are living in a time of record profits for many industries.

Of course taxes are going to go up...where’s this $2k a month coming from?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#47

Post by jostylr »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #12

I can’t help but think that UBI would distort job markets. Let’s pick an example of a “sucky job” (and I say this as just an example, I realize these guys work hard and are vital). A garbage man. He get’s paid $42k a year because they have to find people who would be willing to do this sucky job and need to pay higher than minimum wage to do so. At some point of income, people would be willing to accept the suckiness…

There may also be ways to rearrange the labor if insufficient people wan to step up. For example, there are places where garbage trucks lift trash cans to dump into them. If that is too difficult, one could setup dumpsters at the end of neighborhoods and have a truck that goes dumps that stuff into it. So more work for the individuals.

Similarly, if there were not people to clean offices, then have the office workers do it (assuming there are offices, of course).

For things that are really essential and cannot be done away with, the cost would go up. It seems reasonable to pay more for vital services. That may mean higher taxes or some other payment arrangement, but it is only regressive if the taxes are done in a regressive way.

There may also be deflationary effects (namely eliminating the giant waste of BS jobs): https://medium.com/@austingmackell/the-deflationary-effects-...

A UBI would change the job market. But whether it is a distortion or fixing some externality cost that was distorting the market is certainly debatable.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#48

Post by jahaja »

I think UBI is a pipe dream with the current power structures. A proper UBI that covers all basic living expenses - meaning that you could actually live a dignified life solely on the UBI - would radically shift the power balance from capitalist/business owners to workers. I just can't see capitalists willingly dismantling their own power and leverage.

For this reason, I think that any sort of UBI will likely be woefully inadequate and may even be intentionally devalued over time, especially if it's used as a reason to dismantle welfare services.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#49

Post by dopylitty »

People don’t need money. People need basics like housing, food, and medical care. No UBI scheme is going to work in an economic system like the one in the U.S. that isn’t capable of providing those things. It’s not like there’s a shortage of food or shelter now and yet we still have homeless people while homes sit empty. We still have hungry people while farmers are destroying their crops.

The economic system is the problem.

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