Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#641

Post by ekianjo » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:53 AM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #608

ekianjo wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. The main point is that it makes people dependent of the State if they entirely live on the UBI, which is a pretty poor behavior to encourage - the larger the UBI-reliant pop…

People are dependent on the state anyway. Wealthy people are the most dependent on the state. Because they rely on it to defend their property rigts. Without which they would not be able to keep their wealth.

> People are dependent on the state anyway.

I'm not advocating for no state at all. But there's a difference between a state that protects your rights and defends your country and one that provides everything for all. That's not at all the same level of dependency we are talking about.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#642

Post by maxdo » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:53 AM UTC

how about US is USSR 2.0. law is replaced with political views, ideas to improve economy been replaced by some social dreams. Seriously I can only here socialist debates among democrats. Not trying to create jobs, bring talents to country to support those rose dreams. Nah that's to boring. By automating and modernizing construction business you can have lots of government money. US infrastructure is lagging behind any fist world countries. Let small businesses innovate and you'll find so many people not depend and simply waiting. Instead you have light drugs allowed from one side, heavy opioid epidemic from second and approaching universal income from another and country still rulling by big business interested not to innovate but keep rates expensive. To me it sounds like something so dangerous but nobody cares.

Are you really that socialistic drunk not to see that in current reality people just jump into drugs world with passive people happy to be on a basic income.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#643

Post by black_puppydog » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:53 AM UTC

scaramanga wrote: post #409

> Even the most hardcore anti-capitalists have to give respect to how the combination of capitalism and technology has worked to lift most of the world out poverty and provided us with the security and comfort only kings enjoyed just a few century’s ago. No, they wouldn't. Any more that they would have to "respect" that the combination of Stalinism and technology lifted Russia out of poverty and post-war destruction.…

I came here for this. What a way to start an article with a foregone conclusion.

This is quite typical of discussions on this matter: Every discussion of "where to go from here" immediately asserts that "where we are is great!" which often leads to conclusions of the kind "therefore we should proceed in the same direction, but with this one weird trick."

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#644

Post by pickledcods » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:56 AM UTC

I am busy in the field of fractal arithmetic and quantum logic. Thanks to an incompetent advisor I was dis-advised to follow an academic schooling and missed the boat. With UBI I would have finished the basics of these two fields long ago and published them for the good of science releasing a trove of new techniques, insights, algorithms and hardware designs. Now I have to scavenge for work and waste my time.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#645

Post by zhyder » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:57 AM UTC

Comparing UBI to the welfare system, UBI's upsides:

  U1. Simple to administer
  U2. Efficient spending since the UBI beneficiary has the most information about what he/she needs

But downsides:

  D1. Will inflate cost of everything, including cost of housing and healthcare
  D2. Some fraction of beneficiaries will spend it poorly, meaning we might still need a welfare safety net for them (which itself might incentivize spending UBI poorly)

The alternative is an even bigger welfare system, let's call it Universal Basic Needs. That should include Universal Basic Healthcare, Universal Basic Public Housing, Universal Basic Food (aka food stamps aka rations), etc. It's diametrically opposite to UBI, and the upsides of one are the downsides of the other.

With UBN, there's no need for unemployment insurance, which is a problematic part of the current welfare system because it incentivizes not being employed. Defining the 'basic' level isn't easy, but it should be good enough that each member of congress or parliament wouldn't mind living at that level for a day per year.

I find either of these opposite options better for the future of society than some middle ground of welfare benefits.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#646

Post by bakuninsbart » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:59 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> 3. Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. They could spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment. Even with UBI they could still end up hungry or homeless. Will we help them? Or will we say "you had your UBI, the rest is on you". This changes the morals of how we treat people in the worst times.

I think it should be pretty clear today to any scientifically-minded person that addiction is a mental health problem. Here In Germany, the vast majority of homeless people are addicts or people with major mental health problems. You have a small minority hiding from the law, and an even smaller portion of healthy people choosing the lifestyle.

Instead of relying on the charity of wealthy people, good public mental healthcare, public addiction centres and social workers engaged with the homeless community are the ways forward.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#647

Post by strictfp » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:00 AM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #597

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I have another concern. What will stop landlords from increasing the rent by high percentage of basic income? Suppliers always price their goods as high as they can for the specific values of supply, demand and competition, and none of those things will change. The customers will just have more money to pay for the right to live under a roof.

This is what I'm also afraid of.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#648

Post by millstone » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:02 AM UTC

inflagranti wrote: post #598

isolli wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also wondering about how the amount will be set in practice. Assume UBI is introduced now and set at $1000 per month. In 20 years, $1000 per month will probably not be enough for a basic income, so the amount would have to be raised somehow. Will it be rules-based? Or will it be subject to the same political fights as the minimum wage currently?

This can very easily be solved by making it inflation adjusted (i.e. the value increases with inflation every year). This happens for instance with many social contributions in Switzerland and is IMHO the only reasonably way to set such value.

If you set UBI as inflation-adjusted, then there is no viable political mechanism to reduce it. "Cut everyone's income!" is a losing political message, forever ever.

Inflation is the pressure release valve that allows quietly cutting real costs. Every employer, business, government relies on this. It's why the Fed targets low but positive inflation.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#649

Post by pengstrom » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:03 AM UTC

sjwalter wrote: post #546

austhrow743 wrote: post #466

Intergenerational wealth transfer is the root of all evil. She absolutely shouldn't be able to do that.

Wait--the root of all evil is me trying to work hard to leave something for my kids so they can have a better life than I do and, with any luck, pass on the genes that I've given them? When your policy proposals require extinguishing desires built into our minds and bodies by millions of years of evolution, you should go back to the drawing board. The root of all evil is unqualified, absolute, extreme statements, and…

Well, the discriminating structures in society are the result of people acting mostly rationally in their own interest, not necessary malice. If we're serious about ending discrimination, we'll have to accept not always getting what we think we deserve.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#650

Post by hanspeter » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 9:05 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> They could spend it all on an addiction or just make a bad investment.

In countries with a tradition to have full government care for all citizens, those cases are solved by having the payments managed for you (usually by the city). So you would have weekly smaller payments rather than a monthly payment, and you may even have the city pay your rent for you rather than giving you cash in hand. And if you still mess up and are in a temporary urgent need for money, you can apply for an additional extraordinary amount to cover your critical expenses.

I'm aware that such a "nanny state" is not attractive to a lot of Americans, however this is an approach that solves most of the potential problems and it also relieves other citizens from being concerned about having to give out charities.