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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#561

Post by LordDragonfang »

zpeti wrote: post #548
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

People make this argument whenever there's a discussion of raising the minimum wage, and guess what? It's thoroughly disproven every time.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#563

Post by LorenzA »

zpeti wrote: post #548
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

Something no one ever talks about with UBI is how the effects will be eliminated in a few years. The very things poorer people would buy from it would get more expensive by the UBI proportion, it will just be inflated away. When everyone has an extra $1000 do you really think landlords won’t increase rent? The price of food and clothing won’t increase? When literally an entire country is richer by this amount? UBI do…

ubi doesn't automatically mean that you get a flat increase. there are models where it is modelled with taxes in mind. so simplified. if you had nothing before you know have $1000. if you had $2000 before it stays. if you had $3000 before it goes down to $2500. so sure if you just stupidly add $1000 that wouldn't work

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#564

Post by wesleywt »

7leafer wrote: post #538
sekai wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't Already happens, with welfare. > Predators - individuals and companies will find a way to take your UBI check from you as fast as possible Already happens, with welfare. > Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. Alre…

Already happens, why not make it even worse, right? Just for the alreadist heck of it.

Some people die in car accidents. Let's not make it worse and give everyone a car.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#565

Post by gorgoiler »

zanny wrote: post #554
gorgoiler wrote: post #530

Of all the things on my make the world right shopping list, I absolutely do not see UBI. Renters need help. My priority would be housing rights. What I want is for the government to stop tiptoeing around and implement real regulation. Minimum square footage per person. Minimum building standards to guarantee peace at home. Guaranteed rights, as a tenant, to remain in the property until you decide to leave. No more an…

Fixing housing policy is not exclusive with UBI. And in most states there are minimum square footage requirements that, when too high for the incomes of the population to sustain them in housing, are going to be ignored by said population.

Yes. Any exclusivity would be in the attention spans of voters. One feels like one can only pick one battle at a time.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#566

Post by isolli »

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I'm also wondering about how the amount will be set in practice. Assume UBI is introduced now and set at $1000 per month. In 20 years, $1000 per month will probably not be enough for a basic income, so the amount would have to be raised somehow. Will it be rules-based? Or will it be subject to the same political fights as the minimum wage currently?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#568

Post by CharlesMerriam2 »

How about Universal Basic Employment? Drop minimum wage to $5/hour, and everyone gets and extra $20 x 30 hours a week if they hit minimum employment.

This would aim at efficient production, and have the side effect of efficient consumption.

1. Better Service - economics keep pushing the service quality bar lower as humans are an expensive way to satisfy customers. We do better with a human bagging your groceries than having you bag your own groceries and pay for an idle human.

2. Experience Ladders - people being interested in their own careers leads to more experienced people. For example, a corner store might hire someone to create a promotion if its cheap enough. The person hired might become good at it.

3. Crazy Startups - with survival being possible, people can start a company at high risk, hiring their friends at a cut rate. If it fails, they can give up and work for their friends.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#569

Post by amelius »

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

> A UBI paid for with a carbon tax

I feel like this conflates two issues, and politics should be conducted in all the clarity it can get. Also a carbon tax should probably be used to support the planet, e.g. sustainability projects.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#570

Post by hyko »

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I’m not really concerned about the first two, because they all apply to any low income. UBI will not–and is not intended to–remove relative poverty.

The third is a potential issue, but the question is whether it will be an improvement over what happens now; i.e. many don’t get the chance to administer their own funds or even have them administered on their behalf, we just skip straight to “it’s all on you”. A credible UBI would likely require a massive expansion of redistribution, because we spend so little on poverty relief today. True poverty relief would require giving people a lot of money, and that is by definition very expensive.

The fundamental issue I see with UBI in 2020 is that it must ultimately be paid for with massive productivity gains (in the face of many hard structural challenges), with no real evidence of where they will come from.

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