Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0 • Hacker News Board

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#531

Post by sekai » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:34 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't

Already happens, with welfare.

> Predators - individuals and companies will find a way to take your UBI check from you as fast as possible

Already happens, with welfare.

> Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up.

Already happens, with welfare.

Notice a pattern? People who are likely to mess up with their finances / welfare, etc. will likely mess up with UBI. UBI covers a way larger group of people and gives them opportunities and flexibility, I only see that as win.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#532

Post by zanny » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #517

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

My problem with UBI is that why would giving out "free money" change the world? Say I'm your landlord and you pay me $100/mo for rent. Now you start getting UBI thats $500/mo. Why wouldn't I increase my rent to $200/mo, $300/mo, or even $400/mo? I know that now you can afford the increase. So you'd still have to earn income if you wanted to stay in that place. All I see is prices going up for anything and everything…

When those people move from high rent areas to the presently dilapidated small towns that UBI would revive the renters in the cities won't be able to price gouge their units like they are used to.

Right now housing is totally out of wack because there is an extremely scarce resource (urban housing) that everyone wants and cartel like control of supply to prevent expansion thus making the price grow uncontrollably to consume as much of the maximum incomes earnable in the area as possible.

If suddenly people had a choice between slave for subsistence wages in an extremely high CoL area or move somewhere incredibly cheap and live off government cheese those that make that choice will deflate the demand until a more equitable equilibrium is reached.

So while your landlord could try charging you more for your UBI adjusted you will have the bargaining position that they almost certainly won't be able to replace you with someone willing to pay such outlandish rents.

> Easier way is to think UBI as "free meal" tickets and free housing. Which doesn't sound all that appealing.

For the 20% of food insecure families or ten million+ homeless people in the US it would probably be very appreciated.

And it isn't just the outright homeless, its those currently in abusive households that have no out too.

And it might surprise you, but the working poor - the 80% of paycheck to paycheckers - aren't going to luxury sporting events or buying luxury goods right now anyway. They are paid too little to afford it when the cost of subsistence is so high.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#533

Post by infogulch » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> some governments give poor people vouchers for rent ... targeted by slumlords who find a way to give you as little as possible for them

This seems to be a problem because the vouchers are only redeemable by government-granted monopolies, and thus neither tenant nor landlord are participating an open market. If the tenant could go anywhere else with their money a la UBI nobody would choose those terrible living quarters / they would be priced appropriately.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#534

Post by zanny » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:37 AM UTC

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #483

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

> “do I toil away for the wealthy class? Or do I took away for myself?” This is a false dichotomy. You don’t toil for the wealthy, you toil for your fellow citizens to whom you provide a service. Nobody owes you a living.

Your fellow citizens are not employing you or else the desolate ghettos would be overflowing with capital growth.

Traditionally it takes a capitalist to start a business that can feed and house a population and that capitalist is in it to extract value from their labor. The job does not exist to serve the community, it exists to make the business owner richer. All the demand in the world will not build a sandwich shop lest a capitalist has the funds to build the building. Even if that capitalist is a local who can get a bank loan to do it, etc.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#535

Post by maxekman » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:38 AM UTC

The sad part about capitalism is that it’s working so well because we exploit and (ab)use the earth in such an efficient way. There has to be some more balance to this aspect for the human race to be truly sustainable.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#536

Post by gfxgirl » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:38 AM UTC

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

I really curious how many of the jobs no one wants to do would still get done. I get that the B in UBI is "basic" but still, so many necessary jobs are jobs no one really wants to do but they do because they need money. If they didn't need money would those jobs still get done. Trash collection? Construction work? Hotel cleaners? Janitors? Farmers, Grocery Store stockers, truckers, nurses, sales clerks, .... Sure they'd get more than "Basic" but if they knew they were housed and feed and got medical service until death if they did absolutely nothing how many would choose to do absolutely nothing? Would it be enough the world would be a much worse place to live? Would it be enough that the price of all those services would double, triple, quadruple raising the prices of all the related services and the amount needed for UBI?

I don't like the idea of people suffering jobs they hate but I'm really glad and privileged they choose to do them.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#537

Post by jeremiahhs » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:39 AM UTC

This is simplistic.

Anyone, currently can participate in"capitalism 1.0" by buying the stock market.

Most people prefer to watch sports, buy big TVs and not start saving.

Giving those people money will enable entitled feelings, and create perverse, non productive incentives.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#538

Post by 7leafer » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:40 AM UTC

sekai wrote: post #531

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

> Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't Already happens, with welfare. > Predators - individuals and companies will find a way to take your UBI check from you as fast as possible Already happens, with welfare. > Charity - let's say we actually give every person enough money for food, housing, and utilities. Some people will mess up. Alre…

Already happens, why not make it even worse, right? Just for the alreadist heck of it.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#539

Post by AdamHede » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:40 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I especially buy into your third concern.

Where I live, if the introduction of a UBI was followed by a drastic reduction (or complete elimination) of the means-tested system we know today, hunger would potentially become a problem for people blowing their money early in the month (or getting robbed?).

This tells me the utopian ideas of replacing the entire complex system with a simple UBI isn't feasible. You'll end up in dreadful ethical choices and moral hazard. This is indeed already happening, but the bureaucracy of it makes abuse less attractive.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#540

Post by infogulch » Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 7:41 AM UTC

reilly3000 wrote: post #511

The basic problem is that efficient producer types make terrible consumers. From my industrious friends to Warren Buffet, they don't care to spend the wealth they accumulate. The dollars move more slowly, often to the hands of rent-seeking institutions. When they do consume on a large scale, it funds innovative of extravagance. Its fundamentally ineffective and inefficient relative to other models. Given resources, c…

> excluding people from being able to earn and spend money is actually sacrificing macroeconomic growth in exchange for social control

That's an interesting way to put it