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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#481

Post by luckylion »

TimJRobinson wrote: post #260
christiansakai wrote: post #207

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

I think the timescale matters. I agree when out of work for a few weeks or months most people will take time to relax and do nothing. But when you don't have to work for a longer period of time (say 6+ months) many people will get bored of just consuming and start making more productive use of their life. I don't have evidence to back this up though, I would be interested in seeing this studied.

Long-term unemployment is a big thing in Germany, and they are essentially getting a UBI-equivalent (generous housing including utilities, health care, TV etc, cash, ~1000€ a month in total on average). While it's hard to quantify "productive use of their lives", it's certainly not productive in a contributing-to-society kind of way, and there's also no creative explosion happening.

I believe the big misunderstanding is that intrinsically motivated people assume everybody is like them. But most people are not like them at all, so what might work for you will probably not work for them.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#482

Post by y1182baumy247y »

I did not read all the posts completely, but I missed one point here. Our system only works because we are wasting resources through unnecessary production. Just today there was a fitting reddit post about what I mean.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/i04tc1...

UBI is for the last nail in the coffin that justifies our current economic system. It just prolongs the eventual discussion about real changes.

I am not close to understand the current economy. As I see it, the thing that somehow works is FOSS and the path it took to succeed. People believe in free distribution and usage. People devoting their time to produce software for the community and participation in such projects.

Economy experts will always try to convince us that capitalism and the growth problem can be solved, but this only under the assumption that we continue exploiting and wasting resources, both natural and human.

Over last the couple of month I have been reading statements to be not that much productive. The argument is, that if we automate too much, how can the system live on?

By handing out income via UBI? All the unclear points have already been pointed out here and it does not solve my initial statement and that is that we are producing too much and development and with it production cycles are too short. New devices, new products just come with minor changes and those maybe because of the short development time with a shorter lifetime and more problems.

We are used to a certain way of living. It is time to overthink our lifestyle and then start a real discussion on how to solve our problems.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#483

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

> “do I toil away for the wealthy class? Or do I took away for myself?”

This is a false dichotomy. You don’t toil for the wealthy, you toil for your fellow citizens to whom you provide a service.

Nobody owes you a living.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#484

Post by FranzFerdiNaN »

> Even the most hardcore anti-capitalists have to give respect to how the combination of capitalism and technology has worked to lift most of the world out poverty and provided us with the security and comfort only kings enjoyed just a few century’s ago.

Except capitalism had nothing to do with it. Technology, sure. But capitalism has only hampered this lifting out of poverty, not helped.

And yes yes, i cant wait for people to go "but what about USSR????", and i fully admit, dictatorships also don't work.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#485

Post by luckylion »

rzwitserloot wrote: post #277
christiansakai wrote: post #207

I know these are anecdotes but I already heard several cases from my circle of friends and families where they just chose not to work because of unemployment checks. Instead of practicing music or learning programming or doing something productive during their period of unemployment, they decided to watch Netflix and play games all day. Creating is hard work, studying is hard work. Just like having information and on…

I'm not sure what you're advocating here. That the threat of being homeless forces people to work, against their will? - and that this is better than the alternative for a significant chunk of the populace? Maybe. That seems quite narrowminded. It certainly is [citation needed].

> That the threat of being homeless forces people to work, against their will?

The threat of imprisonment forces people to pay taxes, against their will. Shouldn't we do away with that too?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#486

Post by jedberg »

gzu wrote: post #383
treyfitty wrote: post #272

There are a lot of people here dissenting on the idea of UBI on the premise that they find meaning in work, and to take the incentive to work away will lead others (themselves included) not to have meaning in life. I’ve taken a year off of work to start a business that failed and spent the past few months hanging out with my kids. At first, my stress levels were high because daycares were shut down and I was panickin…

The lack of real world experience on a HackerNews UBI discussion is infuriating. Western society's white collar elite are completely unaware of truly how many "sucky" jobs there are in the world that all enable our (currently) superior standard of living. Your entire existence relies on a globalist system of slave level labor producing products from all corners of the world. Automation of every industry is impossible…

> Whos going to: ....

The same people who do those jobs now -- mostly immigrants.

Only citizens would get UBI.

That's why it's really important to have a good minimum wage and protections for those employees, so they don't get abused.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#487

Post by snowwrestler »

alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

The basic problem with funding a universal income with a carbon tax is that the graphs are pointing in the opposite directions.

Population is going up, and inflation is carefully managed to be persistently slightly positive, so you'll need to grow the nominal size of the UBI fund every year. But taxing carbon emissions will result in decreasing carbon emissions; in fact, this is the entire purpose of taxing it! So your revenue from taxes will go down as your outlays go up.

Philosophically, a universal basic income is intended to be a "forever" government program, like Social Security or Medicare. In contrast, we hope to bring our carbon emissions down dramatically and keep them down. Funding a forever program with a revenue source we hope goes away does not seem like good long-term planning to me.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#488

Post by jusssi »

ChrisLomont wrote: post #268
alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

Most estimates on a carbon tax raise at best $200B a year in the US. For the ~150M adults, that would be a UBI of about $100 a month. Not much of a UBI. It’s also paid by the same people as explained elsewhere in this thread. Tell me again how this works?

Doesn't the state already provide the basic living necessities for anyone who demands it? And somehow it's possible to pay for it already?

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#490

Post by fsloth »

laingc wrote: post #419
alex_young wrote: post #114

A UBI paid for with a carbon tax would both save us from the worst consequences of global warming and stimulate the economy. It's hard to find a rational excuse for not doing it. Planet Money did a great episode on this idea over 7 years ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/epis... They did a followup 5 years later: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/07/18/630267782/epis... It seems like…

One of my best friends is an academic economist working in this space, so while I won’t pretend to be an expert, I have spent a goodly amount of time discussing this with one. With no disrespect intended to you personally, this policy you propose makes no sense. Without putting words in your mouth, it looks to me like “two things I as a progressive like the idea of”, rather than a coherent economic policy. Carbon tax…

"With respect to UBI, the amount of revenue needed to sustain anything other than a token payment is ... orders of magnitude more than could ever be raised by any realistic tax, actually, but that’s rather beside the point."

I disagree strongly that the cost for UBI would be untenable in the general context.

For example nordic countries already have UBI in all but name due to all the support the society gives to those in need. We just don't call it UBI because it's split to several parts. And there is political opposition of course based on the strawman that UBI "would make people lazy". Maybe in some "other" cultures it would (I have no idea where, though), but not in the nordics. So no those in need are forced to go humbly from government desk to the next.

"It’s fine to like UBI .. but acting as though either of them would have a significant positive economic impact is completely unsupported by either theory or evidence"

Disagree again. Poverty reduces peoples life outcomes. Having a scheme that reduces generational poverty will improve educational results, thus increasing life time wages, thus increasing consumption and taxes.

" there’s certainly no reason to link them as part of a single policy."

Strongly agreed! UBI and carbon tax should have nothing to do with each other.

(Sorry, I cropped a bit your comment.)

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