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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#141

Post by sgerenser »

namdnay wrote: post #80
bitexploder wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars

There is no VAT in the U.S. Each state (except for a few) has a sales tax that may or may not apply to vehicles, but if it does the rate is usually 5-8% not 20%. And since it’s variable it’s tacked on at the point of sale not embedded into the “retail price” of the car.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#142

Post by mytailorisrich »

namdnay wrote: post #140
mytailorisrich wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general registration fees are very small compared to the price of a new car, though it probably varies per country. In the UK it's £55... On the other hand, 20% VAT is painful and unheard of in the US afaik (<7% I believe).

The registration fees in France can go from a couple of hundred to tens of thousands of euros, to be paid every time the car changes owner... on top of the pollution tax, paid only the first time

The 'beauty' of France is that working this out obviously requires complicated parameters and formulas.

France: https://immatriculation.ants.gouv.fr/Vos-demarches/Cout-et-t...

UK: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/new-registrations-fe...

As Frenchman in the UK I like to take the piss out of my 'compatriotes'. ;)

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#143

Post by WorldMaker »

darksaints wrote: post #78
neuronic wrote: post #67

Anecdote time: I am driving a Zoe multiple times a week and thoroughly enjoy it. Is it premium class car and will take me 600km? No, but that's not why I am driving Zoes. I drive them because it's short city commutes 99% of the time. Rarely more than 10-15km, usually transporting something or bypassing public transport in busy times/Corona/if car is just quicker. I use them via Sixt Share, a car-sharing service. Alwa…

It sounds like it could be great for a lot of US city dwellers as well. I have lived in Seattle for several years, and can count the number of >50mi trips I've taken with my personal car on zero hands.

There have been a few times I've been tempted to try to petition a Nissan dealer to try to import a Zoe to the US. Nissan America's short-sighted truck focus belies so much more interesting work going on in their siblings in the larger Nissan Group.

The Honda e at least has the excuse that the US has been the slowest to allow sideview cameras in its safety regulations, though Honda America similarly is short-sightedly focused almost solely on trucks in the US.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#144

Post by nradov »

dencodev wrote: post #137
dhosek wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 miles is what we get on a charge with our plugin hybrid minivan before it switches to gas. The last time we bought gas was 28 Feb. It tends to prefer gas in the winter which is a big part of why we bought gas then (looking back over the records, we normally buy a tank of gas once a month in the winter and maybe one more sometime in the summer unless we take a road trip).

I don't think I'd ever get a plug in hybrid - most of the appeal to electric cars for me in the lack of maintenance and lack of things to break. Adding batteries to a gas car just seems like it's doubling the amount that can go wrong and makes the repairs much more expensive.

Toyota plug-in hybrid cars are actually more reliable than comparable Tesla electric cars, despite the greater mechanical complexity.

https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-3-vs-Toyota-Prius-Prim...

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#145

Post by dhosek »

dencodev wrote: post #137
dhosek wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 miles is what we get on a charge with our plugin hybrid minivan before it switches to gas. The last time we bought gas was 28 Feb. It tends to prefer gas in the winter which is a big part of why we bought gas then (looking back over the records, we normally buy a tank of gas once a month in the winter and maybe one more sometime in the summer unless we take a road trip).

I don't think I'd ever get a plug in hybrid - most of the appeal to electric cars for me in the lack of maintenance and lack of things to break. Adding batteries to a gas car just seems like it's doubling the amount that can go wrong and makes the repairs much more expensive.

It's really not that different from a standard hybrid, other than the additional batteries and external charging mechanism. Hybrid technology is over 20 years old now and is no less reliable than a pure internal combustion engine. The plugin has the additional advantage over an EV of eliminating range anxiety since we know that we can always revert to gasoline mode. We have the first model year of the Pacifica hybrid and while there have been a few recalls, I don't think it's been any more than we had with, e.g., our Mazda 626 or our Prius.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#146

Post by Krasnol »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #104
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VW were originally saying the ID.3 was going to be priced similarly to a Golf diesel. I wonder what changed.

Did it change? That was for the base model which they won't be selling until next year, and including the German government incentive. https://insideevs.com/news/406682/vw-id3-cost-compared-with-...

It seems live that government incentive hit really good because the price I read beginning this year was around 40k€ in Germany while you get the Zoe for 21k (without incentive): https://www.renault.de/elektrofahrzeuge/zoe/preise-versionen...

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#147

Post by jeffrallen »

Krasnol wrote: post #22
bryanlarsen wrote: post #7

Tesla Europe numbers are wildly variable. Tesla tends to build their European cars at the beginnning of the quarter so that they can be shipped across the ocean and into customer hands before the end of the quarter. The cars at the end of the quarter are shipped to Americans and the cars built in the last week are shipped to Californians. So because of the COVID shutdown, that means that the only month that Tesla mad…

I don't think there will be many who decided to buy a Zoe because a Tesla wasn't available. It's the price. I doubt there is much overlap with the ID3 too. The cheapest model will cost you two Zoes.

This. I am a Zoe owner. I could not afford a Tesla. Electric cars need to be normal products, not a luxury.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#148

Post by jeffrallen »

Plasmoid2000ad wrote: post #75
pi-rat wrote: post #12

Very interesting, the Zoe is all the way back on 7th place here in Norway (more than 50% of all new cars here are electric), I wonder why there's a big difference compared with "mainland Europe".. Of all time: Leaf, Golf, i3, model S, Soul, Model 3, Zoe.. In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe. Could be because Zoe is a picky charger. It's made to AC charge on TN power nets, and Norway has quite a bit…

I wonder is it how the Zoe is viewed. In most of Europe, I think it's viewed as the only Electric car that's competitive on price against Internal Combusion cars. For a bit more, an eco conscious person can get city car with good range. In Norway, where as I understand all IC cars now are luxury cars due the taxation, the Zoe is just one of many EVs to choose from. If it was me, I'd choose a Kona or a e-Niro over a Z…

My ZE40 has a heat pump.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#149

Post by jeffrallen »

makapuf wrote: post #48
codeulike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nissan have been too slow to get the Leaf to 200+ mile range. They've done it, after talking about it for years, but its expensive.

Renault and Nissan are part of the same group. Pretty sure they share parts.

Unfortunately, not. The Zoe and Leaf platforms are different. Which is stupid.

The Zoe drivetrain was codesigned by Renault and Continental and Continental makes it.

There's a great teardown video of a Zoe's power electronics on YouTube.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#150

Post by jeffrallen »

namdnay wrote: post #74
kozak wrote: post #43

Zoe is not a car where you would want to carry rear-seat passengers very often. I'd compare it more with a Fiat 500e that ID.3 or the Leaf.

Maybe not adult passengers every day, but it's more or less the same as the previous generation of Clio inside, which is the standard workhorse for damilies of 2 adults + 2 kids across europe

2 kids and one in a car seat fit in the back of mine.
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