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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#71

Post by namdnay »

maeln wrote: post #16

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road. I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families.

To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car for madam (e.g. Aygo or Twingo)

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#72

Post by WhompingWindows »

oblio wrote: post #19
raxxorrax wrote: post #18

That is probably because of the price, it is the cheapest of them all. I know many people that bought EVs already and the one thing they have in common is vast disposable income or they got it as a company car. I have a car which I seldom use because I am located in a city and only use it to visit family or some groceries. Did cost 2000€ and has a life expectancy of around 5-8 years. It can go from A to B. I have no…

Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

It's going to be a long while to hit +500km range for $20k. If we assume that Tesla's batteries are around $120/kWh currently (that's generous, I think it's 127), to get 500 km range with the Model 3 would take around 130 kWh (26 kWh/100 mi). That means that the battery alone is going to be $15,000+, which is 75% of your $20k figure.

In my estimation, they'd need to reduce the battery cost down by around 2/3 to reach the vehicle you mention. At current rates of battery cost declines, where battery costs are halving every 4-6 years, we're looking at 2030 or later for a "tens of millions of cars $20k +500km range" vehicle.

That's a long wait, but you don't need 500km range anyway, you can use superchargers to allow a 300km range to do any trip you're interested in.

Range anxiety is not high on the list for Tesla owners, it's mostly about serviceability, overall price, luxury status, and the fact that Tesla is the premium EV by a long shot: no others are close in efficiency and performance in the premium segment.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#73

Post by codfrantic »

guerby wrote: post #51
brnt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all about. Very few buy it instead of thei…

In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not) https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-... 1 Tesla Model 3 29,922 2 VW Polo 12,920 3 Ford Focus 10,478 4 VW Golf 9,263 Number 2 to 4 are small cars. But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrain…

This was specifically because starting in January this year tax breaks for electric cars were changed considerably for people leasing an electric car, specifically the more expensive ones.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#74

Post by namdnay »

kozak wrote: post #43

Zoe is not a car where you would want to carry rear-seat passengers very often. I'd compare it more with a Fiat 500e that ID.3 or the Leaf.

Maybe not adult passengers every day, but it's more or less the same as the previous generation of Clio inside, which is the standard workhorse for damilies of 2 adults + 2 kids across europe

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#75

Post by Plasmoid2000ad »

pi-rat wrote: post #12

Very interesting, the Zoe is all the way back on 7th place here in Norway (more than 50% of all new cars here are electric), I wonder why there's a big difference compared with "mainland Europe".. Of all time: Leaf, Golf, i3, model S, Soul, Model 3, Zoe.. In 2020: E-tron, Golf, Leaf, Kona, Model 3, Soul, Zoe. Could be because Zoe is a picky charger. It's made to AC charge on TN power nets, and Norway has quite a bit…

I wonder is it how the Zoe is viewed.

In most of Europe, I think it's viewed as the only Electric car that's competitive on price against Internal Combusion cars. For a bit more, an eco conscious person can get city car with good range.

In Norway, where as I understand all IC cars now are luxury cars due the taxation, the Zoe is just one of many EVs to choose from. If it was me, I'd choose a Kona or a e-Niro over a Zoe, but I cant afford them (If they were even ever in stock). At Kona e-Niro prices... in my country... I'd choose a sporty semi-luxury car... Maybe Zoe is just in that Niche in countries that aren't (yet) heavily taxing IC cars.

But it's probably about the cold weather performance. Other cars charge faster, and that's important (even psychologically) in Winter. Other cars are also more efficient per km, so you're getting hammered by both in Winter - A car that uses a lot of kw/h per km in good weather does even worse in snow/slush and wind, and then leave you at the charger for longer!

The orignally Zoe and ZE40 models weren't great either, I think they lacked heat pumps too (even worse cold weather performance!), but while I'm only seeing Renault heavily push the Zoe to regular folks now, maybe the Zoe brand name has already been tarnished in Norway?

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#76

Post by koenvdb »

guerby wrote: post #51
brnt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Commute cars are Aygos and Ups, not two ton sedans. The (original) Tesla is one of the largest vehicles you'll see around here, only beaten by the hughest SUVs. And the commute market is where people buy electric, so that doesn't match at all. Anecdatally the only people I know with Teslas are rich enough they have it as one of their cars, as an extra to see what it is all about. Very few buy it instead of thei…

In the whole 2019 (with a crazy december) Tesla Model 3 was the first car by number of sale (electric or not) https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/08/tesla-model-3-shatters-... 1 Tesla Model 3 29,922 2 VW Polo 12,920 3 Ford Focus 10,478 4 VW Golf 9,263 Number 2 to 4 are small cars. But Tesla sale number per country just mean Tesla decided to allocate more cars to a specific country, as long as it is production constrain…

Focus and Golf are both similar sizes, I wouldn't say the VW Golf is a small car. (Nor would I say that about the new Polo, it's actually quite big)

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#77

Post by bitexploder »

namdnay wrote: post #71
maeln wrote: post #16

It's honestly not a surprise. The European market favor smaller car way more than the American one. You just have to see the sheer number of 206, Twingo & Clio on the road. I still see some Tesla, but usually it is a status symbol, people who just want an electric car usually go for the Nissan Leaf or the Renault Zoe.

One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car…

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#78

Post by darksaints »

neuronic wrote: post #67

Anecdote time: I am driving a Zoe multiple times a week and thoroughly enjoy it. Is it premium class car and will take me 600km? No, but that's not why I am driving Zoes. I drive them because it's short city commutes 99% of the time. Rarely more than 10-15km, usually transporting something or bypassing public transport in busy times/Corona/if car is just quicker. I use them via Sixt Share, a car-sharing service. Alwa…

It sounds like it could be great for a lot of US city dwellers as well. I have lived in Seattle for several years, and can count the number of >50mi trips I've taken with my personal car on zero hands.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#80

Post by namdnay »

bitexploder wrote: post #77
namdnay wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons for that is that cars are cheap in the USA, in the absolute and even more relative to incomes. The cheapest RWD model 3 starts at 50k euros - that's unaffordable for 99% of french families. To give a very simplified but realistic stereotype: An upper-middle class family od two software engineers + 2 children will probably have one "premium" family car for sir (e.g. VW Golf or 3008) and one city car…

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price

It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars

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