Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 175 posts

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#131

Post by detaro »

xyzzyz wrote: post #127
cheerlessbog wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scale is daunting...running new cables for probably more than half the households in the EU. Comparable to the effort to get fiber to the home.

In Europe at least regular outlet charging should be more viable than in the US. A typical installation is 230V with 16A breaker, which will charge a car twice as fast as typical 120V/15A installation. Thus, there is less pressing need to do installation upgrades for electric cars in Europe, running a long cord will be good enough most of the time.

1 phase 16A is still not really good - only ~3.6 kW at best. But 230V still makes the cabling easier to handle and 3-phase power is common in residential buildings (at least in parts of Europe), so 11 kW (3x16A) or 22 kW (3x32A) are usual sizes for electric car chargers at homes.

Bigger restriction on that is how many people don't live in homes where they can just install a charger, but rather in apartments with either no charging or no dedicated parking at all.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#132

Post by 0xffff2 »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #70
oblio wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these. I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.

Most Americans don't have these either.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#133

Post by xyzzyz »

detaro wrote: post #131
xyzzyz wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe at least regular outlet charging should be more viable than in the US. A typical installation is 230V with 16A breaker, which will charge a car twice as fast as typical 120V/15A installation. Thus, there is less pressing need to do installation upgrades for electric cars in Europe, running a long cord will be good enough most of the time.

1 phase 16A is still not really good - only ~3.6 kW at best. But 230V still makes the cabling easier to handle and 3-phase power is common in residential buildings (at least in parts of Europe), so 11 kW (3x16A) or 22 kW (3x32A) are usual sizes for electric car chargers at homes. Bigger restriction on that is how many people don't live in homes where they can just install a charger, but rather in apartments with eith…

Right, electric cars are too inconvenient for most apartment dwellers, but contrary to a popular impression, there are lots of Europeans who live in single family houses. Additionally, even residents of rural European areas are driving much less on average than rural Americans, simply because what counts for rural in most of Europe is already denser than rural America, especially in the west portion of it.

I think the biggest reason for relatively slow adoption of electric cars in Europe is simply that most European are significantly poorer than most Americans, while also having to pay high taxes and fees. Median household income in Mississippi is almost 50% higher than median household income in France, for example, and this is compounded by higher taxes in France.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#134

Post by dencodev »

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #124
dencodev wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see endless Leafs for sale (the older original ones) for only $5k. Granted their batteries are pretty degraded and I'm sure only gets 60 miles of range when blasting AC or heater.

Actually a lot less, more like 30 miles. Worse if it's cold, hot or uphill. I've owned a couple of leafs. The problem is kind of interesting - a smaller battery in and of itself is painful but there's a deeper problem. YOu have to spread the charge cycle over the whole battery and you have to do more charge cycles. So a Tesla can discharge different cells each day, and any individual cell gets used less frequently. W…

At 30 miles range I think I'd rather just take my ebike instead, which gets 24 miles at 30MPH with zero pedaling if I bring an extra battery.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#135

Post by dhosek »

dencodev wrote: post #134
bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually a lot less, more like 30 miles. Worse if it's cold, hot or uphill. I've owned a couple of leafs. The problem is kind of interesting - a smaller battery in and of itself is painful but there's a deeper problem. YOu have to spread the charge cycle over the whole battery and you have to do more charge cycles. So a Tesla can discharge different cells each day, and any individual cell gets used less frequently. W…

At 30 miles range I think I'd rather just take my ebike instead, which gets 24 miles at 30MPH with zero pedaling if I bring an extra battery.

30 miles is what we get on a charge with our plugin hybrid minivan before it switches to gas. The last time we bought gas was 28 Feb. It tends to prefer gas in the winter which is a big part of why we bought gas then (looking back over the records, we normally buy a tank of gas once a month in the winter and maybe one more sometime in the summer unless we take a road trip).

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#136

Post by dhosek »

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #124
dencodev wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see endless Leafs for sale (the older original ones) for only $5k. Granted their batteries are pretty degraded and I'm sure only gets 60 miles of range when blasting AC or heater.

Actually a lot less, more like 30 miles. Worse if it's cold, hot or uphill. I've owned a couple of leafs. The problem is kind of interesting - a smaller battery in and of itself is painful but there's a deeper problem. YOu have to spread the charge cycle over the whole battery and you have to do more charge cycles. So a Tesla can discharge different cells each day, and any individual cell gets used less frequently. W…

It looks like a battery pack replacement with a new battery pack would run around $6K including labor. Assuming the body is fine, that's not too bad of a deal to add onto a cheap Leaf.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#137

Post by dencodev »

dhosek wrote: post #135
dencodev wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 30 miles range I think I'd rather just take my ebike instead, which gets 24 miles at 30MPH with zero pedaling if I bring an extra battery.

30 miles is what we get on a charge with our plugin hybrid minivan before it switches to gas. The last time we bought gas was 28 Feb. It tends to prefer gas in the winter which is a big part of why we bought gas then (looking back over the records, we normally buy a tank of gas once a month in the winter and maybe one more sometime in the summer unless we take a road trip).

I don't think I'd ever get a plug in hybrid - most of the appeal to electric cars for me in the lack of maintenance and lack of things to break. Adding batteries to a gas car just seems like it's doubling the amount that can go wrong and makes the repairs much more expensive.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#139

Post by mytailorisrich »

namdnay wrote: post #80
bitexploder wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars

In general registration fees are very small compared to the price of a new car, though it probably varies per country. In the UK it's £55...

On the other hand, 20% VAT is painful and unheard of in the US afaik (<7% I believe).

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#140

Post by namdnay »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #139
namdnay wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars

In general registration fees are very small compared to the price of a new car, though it probably varies per country. In the UK it's £55... On the other hand, 20% VAT is painful and unheard of in the US afaik (<7% I believe).

The registration fees in France can go from a couple of hundred to tens of thousands of euros, to be paid every time the car changes owner... on top of the pollution tax, paid only the first time
Post reply on HN