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The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

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Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#121

Post by consp »

neutronicus wrote: post #109
cheerlessbog wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these. I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.

Yeah my wife and I live in an apartment building in a mid-major city on the US east coast and we looked into a PHEV (wanted the tax credit), but it just wasn't workable. I looked for garages and lots with charging stations but couldn't find one. In effect the tax credit seems like a subsidy for detached single family homes, since I really don't see how you can swing it any other way.

This is not just the case in the US, in the EU the same problem exists for city dwellers. Around my place there is even some wealth discrimination going on as the city will build charging pole only if there is sufficient non-subsidized living space available in the neighborhood (because poor people cant accumulate wealth apparently) and you need to buy the vehicle first after which they will place a charging pole within 12 months. So you need a drive lane or garage or charge it somewhere else.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#122

Post by xyzzyz »

namdnay wrote: post #80
bitexploder wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they so expensive in Europe? Are cars taxed to discourage their purchase? Or does it truly cost more for a car in Europe somehow?

I'm really not sure. There's VAT which is around 20%ish, maybe that's lower in the US? And then registration + carbon taxes cost on top, but I didn't even include that in the price It's also just that middle-class and higher incomes are much lower here than in the US + property is on average much more expensive. so people don't have as much disposable income to burn on cars

Many countries also have specific taxes based on engine size and emissions. For example, for 2020 Ford Explorer, a relatively popular SUV in the US (often a police car), you’d pay something like 12k EUR of extra pollution tax in France at purchase.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#123

Post by xyzzyz »

Decade wrote: post #112
em500 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> California gas prices Most European drivers would be thrilled with California gas prices: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/gas-prices/

Hopefully they are too socially responsible to be “thrilled” with that. American gas prices and vehicle fees are scandalously low, too low to pay for upkeep of car infrastructure, let alone to pay for the externalities of driving and of burning fossil fuels.

Even more scandalously low are public transit prices, which are too low to even cover half the cost of operating it, much less to cover the infrastructure upkeep.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#124

Post by bfieidhbrjr »

dencodev wrote: post #91
dhosek wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the US, used Nissan Leafs run around $10K. We don't have much call for another car right now (our main car is a plug-in hybrid Chrysler minivan), but if we did, this would be a likely candidate.

I see endless Leafs for sale (the older original ones) for only $5k. Granted their batteries are pretty degraded and I'm sure only gets 60 miles of range when blasting AC or heater.

Actually a lot less, more like 30 miles. Worse if it's cold, hot or uphill. I've owned a couple of leafs.

The problem is kind of interesting - a smaller battery in and of itself is painful but there's a deeper problem. YOu have to spread the charge cycle over the whole battery and you have to do more charge cycles. So a Tesla can discharge different cells each day, and any individual cell gets used less frequently. With the leaf, you're using every cell, every day. So it's compounding and much worse than people realize, forgetting all the other problems like no thermal control on the pack.

I actually loved my leafs (leaves?) but they couldn't even get to the city and back very quickly (I mean after 6 months the battery loses a bar). The newer ones are betterish.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#125

Post by _ph_ »

nickik wrote: post #52

Tesla will only really start competing in Europe once their factory is up and running. It messes with their financials to have lots of vehicles being transported. That should give them some high volume but the cars are still not perfect for the European market, but at least they should make a good margin. It will probebly be 2 more years before they have a 'small' car for Europe and China in production. Only then the…

Even worse, they have to pay 12% taxes on any imported Tesla (10% import duty + 20% VAT on the duty)

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#126

Post by mytailorisrich »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #115
mytailorisrich wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I hear, for the same price range BMWs, Mercedes, etc. are also much better quality than Teslas.

In terms of quality of finish and materials, yes. But those are status differentiators rather than functional differences and the Tesla brand name has a status all of its own so they appeal to people with slightly different preferences around status signalling.

Quality is definitely not a status differentiator. The brand is. Usually higher price goes hand in hand with better quality, because that's what is expected of a more expensive car for quite obvious reasons.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#127

Post by xyzzyz »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #108
PeterisP wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running electricity cables to streetside parking spaces and parking lots near apartment buildings is now considered key infrastructure that the EU governments are rolling out. It's slow at the moment, but we'll get there.

The scale is daunting...running new cables for probably more than half the households in the EU. Comparable to the effort to get fiber to the home.

In Europe at least regular outlet charging should be more viable than in the US. A typical installation is 230V with 16A breaker, which will charge a car twice as fast as typical 120V/15A installation. Thus, there is less pressing need to do installation upgrades for electric cars in Europe, running a long cord will be good enough most of the time.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#129

Post by rjsw »

rsynnott wrote: post #61
mytailorisrich wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what we see on European roads it's quite common for people in Belgium and the Netherlands to drive to Southern Europe for the summer holidays. Usually these are big wagon cars, though because they need to fit the family and luggage in there. So I think that people will stick to ICE until there are family-sized EV with the range and the price range. Teslas are not really an option at the moment, IMO.

I don't doubt that _some_ people do it, but I would seriously doubt that everyone, or anything approaching everyone, does it. This would imply a much smaller market for small cars than actually exists. So, yeah, the Zoe wouldn't be suitable for those people, but it might be suitable for people who buy small cars anyway (which is most of the market, AFAIK).

Try driving on a French autoroute on a weekend during a holiday period, you would guess that there is nobody left in Belgium or the Netherlands.

Re: The Electric Car Atop Europe’s Sales Charts Isn’t a Tesla or VW

#130

Post by dalys »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #70
oblio wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whichever company is the first to make a family EV with a +500km range for less than $20k will sell tens of millions of cars.

In the US most electric cars are charged on the driveway or in the garage. Most Europeans don't have these. I'm generalizing of course, but it's a significant difference. Most folks I know would have to run a cable across the sidewalk. Electric is only going to work if all the supermarkets and pubs etc etc have fast chargers. Or maybe they put them into lamp posts.

There are new EU laws regarding charging infrastructure, which is not going to solve everything really, but help.

Pretty much all new buildings will require the infrastructure for charging at every parking spot, if you have parking inside the building. Buildings that undergo major renovations will also have this requirement. But actually charging points / boxes you have to install is a bit lower if I remember, only 1 per parking lot or something.

Thankfully these laws will also be applied retroactively from 2025, so all old buildings have to get their act together by then. These laws do not apply to singe family homes.

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