Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere • Hacker News Board

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#121

Post by BrandoElFollito » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 8:26 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #110

Barrin92 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The false choice here is actually that you can sacrifice lives and still expect to have freedom. The alternative to not giving up privacy for contact tracing or similar measures is to be locked into your home medieval style while the plague runs wild in the streets, which is a significantly stronger limitation of freedoms. The choice isn't between liberty or safety, just as it isn't between economic health and lockdo…

While I understood lockdown measures, know that this is your privilege talking. You can stay in lockdown because you're middle class living in a wealthy country. In countries like India lockdown can cost far more than what Covid-19 can do. I'm not arguing against public health measures, when the cost to me is low or when accompanied by evidence. So where's the evidence that tracing apps work? That South Korea does it…

> 'm not arguing against public health measures, when the cost to me is low or when accompanied by evidence.

Sometime there are no clear evidences, just suppositions - or the individual cost is not insignificant.

In that case you should not be surprised to be forced to stay at home, similarly to not being allowed in a school when not vaccinated.

You decide to pose a risk to society - you must face the consequences.

My wife is immuno-depressed so people, for their comfort and freedom decide to be a danger are my personal enemies. I want to make sure they are forced to stay at home with their liberty with them.

Only when you cooperate with society "for the greater good" then you are free to express your freedom publicly.

This is not something philosophical - it is life at stake for some people.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#122

Post by Avamander » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #31

You don't want to install a tracing app for "privacy reasons" fine. Just make sure you don't have any of: Google's location history turned on, any FB app (FB/Instagram/Whatsapp), TikTok, 4sq/swarm, Tinder, Happn, or any app that has fine-grained location permissions.

Ah yes, the waterproof "some bad things are happening, it must mean that this other bad thing happening is also fine"-argument.

"Most people infect their devices with malware from the internet, let's all preinstall malware to every device because it has the same end result."

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#123

Post by bluedispatcher » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #98

thetanil wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask me if I will volunteer to give apple or google any more information than they already collect and my answer will always be no. I don't care what the reasoning. Germany did it right.

Since the contract tracing api doesn’t give information to Apple or Google, it’s hard to see what relevance this comment has.

The parent comment was suggesting governments should publish the anonymized ids of infected citizens through Apple/Google.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#124

Post by bluedispatcher » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

euix wrote: post #50

If you have google maps installed on your phone and location turned on, every time you visit a restaurant you already get the message of "how did you like xyz, please rate and help other visitors" You are already living in a surveillance state. The difference is unlike in other places in the world you can complain and shout about it.

Just because you chose to sacrifice your privacy for convenience doesn't mean it should become a baseline for what we expect. Especially nor for government services.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#125

Post by StanislavPetrov » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

euix wrote: post #50

If you have google maps installed on your phone and location turned on, every time you visit a restaurant you already get the message of "how did you like xyz, please rate and help other visitors" You are already living in a surveillance state. The difference is unlike in other places in the world you can complain and shout about it.

Reason 5,431 why I carry a 3g flip phone (with the battery often removed).

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#126

Post by Closi » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

cgearhart wrote: post #92

> One of the potential advantages of a centralised model is that it would allow the use of machine learning to adapt thresholds to minimise error... This is a cop out. Machine learning isn’t magic. If the proximity measurement doesn’t really work without ML then it’s probably not going to start working with ML. Besides, if you really wanted to do it in a decentralized app you could use federated learning, no?

ML could be an overstretch, but centralised approaches definitely do allow for more analysis and a deeper rules-based approach.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#127

Post by michelledepeil » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

poshenloh wrote: post #116

neuronic wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Must be just lovely for pets at home or is it outside of the frequencies that cats can hear (up to 79 kHz)? Also this thread is filled with people complaining about bluetooth spying capabilities and now you post an app with bluetooth always on AND microphone always listening?

Thanks for asking. I'm the founder of NOVID. Our app has a pet mode if your pet does not like it. This doesn't seem to have been a problem. The microphone is also not always listening. It turns on for 2 seconds when needed. The complete app source code has been given to a university security research team for review, and they will see that the microphone is used only for its intended purpose: to process ultrasonic fr…

Out of curiosity, why not make the app source-available?

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#128

Post by avivo » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

This is completely missing what is likely the primary obstacle to adoption, at least in the US. Apple and Google require an entire state to commit exclusively to using a single app. Even though they use a protocol that would easily interoperate across jurisdictions and apps effectively.

City governments which could move much faster are unable to do anything. States are on fire dealing with others things. They also all want some smaller scale trial to happen first, but no one can do that according to Apple/Google policies. So they are all stuck in a chicken and egg problem...

(This is all according my sources working directly on such apps which were ready to deploy 3 months ago — but were completely stopped by the policy; I'm interested to hear if anyone is aware of reasons why this might not be accurate).

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#129

Post by Spearchucker » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #82

thetanil wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask me if I will volunteer to give apple or google any more information than they already collect and my answer will always be no. I don't care what the reasoning. Germany did it right.

Germany adopted the Apple/Google framework, which is exactly what an Apple/Google app would use. The whole point of the design is that it’s decentralized and you wouldn’t be giving Apple/Google more information.

True. Except that the German app turns on EVERYTHING - LTE, WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS. And the carrier gets it all. I had the app installed for all of maybe 2 minutes because it did exactly what it claimed to do, but I'm not giving the carrier even more granular location info. The only thing I leave on when I leave the house is mobile data.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#130

Post by eecc » Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

Italy’s Immuni wasn’t downloaded enough to be a significant sample; people are too worried about their bloody battery performance and “what if I’m flagged and gub’mint makes me isolate home”. The National Health Service’s effort to run a population wide serological sample was also declined because “what if I’m positive and I need to stay home”. The fucking chemical reagents expired in the meantime.

It’s these times when I have to make an effort not to praise regimes for their efficiency in enforcement... or it’s just theater and marketing and human nature is rotting their process to the core as well..