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Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

eclecticlight.co

111–120 of 204 posts

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#111
I was suspicious of the effectiveness of contact tracing apps, which have to rely on something as unreliable as Bluetooth to estimate distance across different kinds of hardware, different kinds of software drivers and in different situations. That got worse with some governments wanting to collect location information through the contact tracing apps 24/7 and centralize it.

> It would appear that no government has thought this out properly yet.

This seems to be true at least in India, where the app is a centralized one that doesn’t use the Apple/Google framework The app tracks the location of users at all times (it asks for that permission) and hence cannot use the APIs since Apple and Google prohibit such apps from collecting location information. Since it requires background location access and Internet connectivity, it’s a good addition to drain batteries quicker.

The government also famously declared that the app would be open sourced so that it could be improved and issues fixed. That turned out to be a farce with the source released only for the Android version, and that too for an older version of the app with some code removed (the code on the Play Store was newer). They stopped releasing updates of the source. They didn’t release the source of the iOS app, which was supposed to be “shortly” (that was around two months ago). They didn’t fix the issues that people raised on GitHub. Yet the government claimed that the app was effective and put out some numbers on it being useful (without any backing data or any way to verify those claims).

It gets even worse. The app being a platform for contact tracing is only one facet. The goal that wasn’t widely disclosed was to have private companies build on top of the app and its server side data to create platforms on health data collected from hundreds of millions of people. Note that India doesn’t have a data privacy or data protection law, leave alone anything to control health related data in the hands of crony capitalists and opportunists.

Now all talk about contact tracing and its effectiveness is muted or nowhere to be seen, though the app is being pushed as a requirement to give people permission to travel and for other purposes.

The platform has become, and is continuing to become, what some people feared...and that’s getting farther from handling COVID-19 or a public health crisis.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#112

I'm surprised this isn't mentioned in the article or any comments, and I'm wondering whether I'm missing something about the significance of this. But I thought the biggest problem was that Google and Apple didn't build a contract tracing app - they built a framework for local governments to build apps on top of. This leaves the work of marketing the app and driving adoption to each government (as well as building an…

Idk, maybe Google and Apple could do more, but I thought it was almost a wonder how fast Google and Apple came up with a workable framework.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#113

This is looking at it from a technological angle. However, what about the social/financial aspects? If I am told to self isolate for any duration of time, will the government provide 100% of my lost wages? Will they support businesses who could be put in real trouble from someone having time off? What about potential repeated cases of isolation? Most people (including myself) will do anything to avoid being on their…

Classic collective action problem. For a while, China was paying people who tested positive as a solution.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The false choice here is actually that you can sacrifice lives and still expect to have freedom. The alternative to not giving up privacy for contact tracing or similar measures is to be locked into your home medieval style while the plague runs wild in the streets, which is a significantly stronger limitation of freedoms. The choice isn't between liberty or safety, just as it isn't between economic health and lockdo…

Locking yourself up for fear of a <1% chance of dying is very much a choice.

1% chance is for you. But if you are able to infect another person, that is no longer 1% as a whole.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#115

I'm surprised this isn't mentioned in the article or any comments, and I'm wondering whether I'm missing something about the significance of this. But I thought the biggest problem was that Google and Apple didn't build a contract tracing app - they built a framework for local governments to build apps on top of. This leaves the work of marketing the app and driving adoption to each government (as well as building an…

Apple and Google are probably stuck between a rock and a hard place with this contact tracing.

Between them, they have exact positions of a vast majority of individuals, at least in western societies. They could have done useful contact tracing at the press of a button, even historically, for every major event such as large concerts, churches, night clubs which we know were the most important situations to contact trace. They could have done this with the data they already have.

This would however set a bad precedent on how this data is shared. Law enforcement is one thing, medial tracing is another. So instead they set out to build this BLE tracing toolkit, which is something that at best is intended for future use, when everyone has the requisite hardware and software installed. It wouldn't reach more than a minority of users today which severely limits its usefulness, all for the possibility of reaching into situations such as bus rides, where nobody really knows how contagious these situations are because we simply do not have enough knowledge of the virus yet. Real world measurements are also likely to be noisy (where someone carries their phone in their hand and another in their backpack with a water bottle) even if we could set a hard limit on a safe distance, which we can't.

So maybe we will get something useful in the future, for the price of not exposing the data already available today.

It is amusing that the BLE tracing toolkits were sold as a way of not having to expose your location data to Google and Apple, the exact entities who already have fine grained location data on most people.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#116

> the reliability of distance estimates using Bluetooth signal attenuation Take a look NOVID [0] the app CMU professor and graduate students built. It uses ultrasound to be accurate within 1m. It also approaches the utility of contact tracing in a completely different way. [0] https://www.novid.org/

Must be just lovely for pets at home or is it outside of the frequencies that cats can hear (up to 79 kHz)? Also this thread is filled with people complaining about bluetooth spying capabilities and now you post an app with bluetooth always on AND microphone always listening?

Thanks for asking. I'm the founder of NOVID. Our app has a pet mode if your pet does not like it. This doesn't seem to have been a problem. The microphone is also not always listening. It turns on for 2 seconds when needed. The complete app source code has been given to a university security research team for review, and they will see that the microphone is used only for its intended purpose: to process ultrasonic frequencies.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#117
Contact Tracing is not recommended (and basically pointless) for mild respiratory illnesses like Coronaviruses because for the vast majority of people, they are asymptomatic or lowly symptomatic, and the spread can be extensive.

Its only recommended for more serious viruses like Ebola.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#118

> the reliability of distance estimates using Bluetooth signal attenuation Take a look NOVID [0] the app CMU professor and graduate students built. It uses ultrasound to be accurate within 1m. It also approaches the utility of contact tracing in a completely different way. [0] https://www.novid.org/

Thank you for sharing this. I'm the founder of NOVID. The problem has been that no other app provided direct value to the user. Other apps are designed to protect other people from you if you get exposed (they then tell you to isolate to protect others). NOVID directly protects you from others, by anonymously warning you of COVID's approach along your relationship network.

This reversal of incentives is critical.

On top of that, NOVID also actually demonstrates the necessary accuracy to function. It is the only app which dares to report estimated distances to every user on their screen.

We are trying as hard as we can to let people know about these two major points of differentiation from the rest of the contact tracing app space. Thank you for helping!

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#119
post #62
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Random Bluetooth identifiers rotate every 10-20 minutes, to help prevent tracking [1]. (Of course it's always possible to track phones with their radios on for some time and distance.) [1] https://covid19-static.cdn-apple.com/applications/covid19/cu...

That's irrelevant because once you're infected, you give up your daily keys[1], which allow your random ids to be correlated together. [1] technically this is optional, but not doing so also means you're not reporting your infected status to others, which kills the point of contact tracing.

You're right, I wonder why they didn't harden it just a little by transmitting less and listening more, or by changing keys more often.

Re: Smartphone contact tracing has failed everywhere

#120

I'm surprised this isn't mentioned in the article or any comments, and I'm wondering whether I'm missing something about the significance of this. But I thought the biggest problem was that Google and Apple didn't build a contract tracing app - they built a framework for local governments to build apps on top of. This leaves the work of marketing the app and driving adoption to each government (as well as building an…

>Maybe so that the backends could be independent?

Funny, I misread 'backends' as 'backdoors'.

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