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Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

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Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#241

Post by ghaff »

wutbrodo wrote: post #117
game_the0ry wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're stuck at home you might as well study. Exactly. It's a good opportunity for self directed study. I would spend time doing something productive, not traveling.

Self-directed study is challenging, especially for 17 year-olds that don't have anyone (eg parents) who are in tune enough with autodidactism to guide them. One of the biggest advantages of college for me was realizing how much there was to learn and how easy it was to do it (after skating through all of my schooling with straight As), and I only really refined my autodidactic abilities in my mid-20s.

And even if they are tuned into autodidactism, self-study is not really an outcome in and of itself. So I pick some topic and topics to self-study for a year while staying with my parents. Maybe I get some part-time job. Maybe I even get fairly deep into some generally useful topic. Now what when I enter university the following year?

There are probably some core subjects I could usefully have studied. But, in general, I'm probably not going to place out of classes at many schools even if I've deliberately studied for AP tests. So it's not obvious that year of self-study necessarily leads to a shortened or improved degree program.

That's not a reason not to do it of course. But self-study doesn't necessarily lead to greater personal enrichment than volunteering or hiking the Appalachian Trail does.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#242

Post by ghaff »

Grimm1 wrote: post #199
astura wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they literally don't know how to learn what they are interested in? I went into computer science as a major because I was interested in computers. College was literally the only way I was able to learn because I didn't know anything about getting started - I didn't know what a programming language was, for example, so I wouldn't know to learn to program. I grew up poor and my public education was very substandard.…

Google "Careers in computers", followed by how to learn then click on any of the resources and get to it. I'm very much not a fan of the kind of "learned helplessness" being displayed in this comment and getting started in something like this is trivial with the amount of resources available right now. It's really not that hard to get started learning and college doesn't really prepare you for these jobs anyway so if…

I'd agree that "computers" is almost certainly not the best example. Self-teaching how to program is probably one of the easiest topics to jump into out there. And it has the benefit that, if you're really pretty sure you want to major in computer science (which may or may not actually be the best choice for someone who is just "interested in computers") learning how to at least program and doing some projects, etc. is one area of self-study that will be very valuable when you start university.

As has been discussed here at length before, for better or worse, good university computer science curricula tend to assume you know your way around a computer and can program--or you have to get up to speed very quickly on the side.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#243

Post by mjcohen »

brummm wrote: post #181
bilbo0s wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trans Canada Trail"? Can we get into Canada? EDIT: I mean that I thought Canada won't allow entry to people from the US? Is that just a rumor?

No non-essential travel for Americans to Canada.

If Trump is re-elected, escape would be essential.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#244

Post by Tempest1981 »

kerkeslager wrote: post #184
astura wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only you can afford to do something like that or are bankrolled by someone else. I couldn't afford being away from my only source of income at school (student loans) for a year when I was going to school, I would literally be homeless without it. Add on that it's very difficult to get a job to support yourself right now and full time students are not eligible for unemployment. That's not even considering the risks yo…

Don't assume I'm coming from a position of privilege. I dropped out of college because I couldn't pay for it, and if I could go back, I would absolutely not go in debt for those years of college which didn't result in a degree. Let's be clear here: student loans are not income. If you're going into debt to pay for college, that's even more reason that you should wait to go to college. If your reason for staying in sc…

If you leave school for a year, how hard is it to return? I.e. any re-admission issues?

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#245

Post by Digory »

albatross wrote: post #164
humanistbot wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except "embracing" is definitely not the right word. Very few professors I know are happy about this whole situation. Universities are begrudgingly accepting the fact that they can't have in-person classes, so they have to turn to online alternatives. Tuition can't be changed because the few costs that are being saved (facilities still need maintenance) are offset by the massive losses in revenue from student housing…

It seems like an educational instituion relying on income from real estate properties points to the greater issue here: General lack of funding for education. Making money off housing will disproportionately affect students of differing income backgrounds, so this is not the same as moving that cost to tuition fees. Schools shouldn't have to run themselves like a traditional business, yet that is exactly the model mo…

Schools will always have to compete for their share of the pie, unless you want to do some pretty bad things.

Even in a no-limits, fully-government-paid education system, Tidmarsh Community College is going to have to convince students to come there instead of Harvard or State U. They'll have different resources.

You'd have to reduce student choice, or socialize college assets, to have a world where colleges just don't care about running like a business. It's not about level of funding, it's allocation.

The current system misallocates by hiding the true cost and benefits from students. You go to the school with fancy-pants dorms because you think it has been successful! Aren't those dorms and gyms built with successful alumni donations and clever investments?

No! Those amenities are being paid with the loan payments you'll make in your 30s and 40s.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#246

Post by volkl48 »

Domenic_S wrote: post #186
albatross wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like an educational instituion relying on income from real estate properties points to the greater issue here: General lack of funding for education. Making money off housing will disproportionately affect students of differing income backgrounds, so this is not the same as moving that cost to tuition fees. Schools shouldn't have to run themselves like a traditional business, yet that is exactly the model mo…

> Making money off housing will disproportionately affect students of differing income backgrounds Having trouble parsing this. What do you mean? IMO the problem is that many colleges are not focused on education to begin with. They compete with each other by building the most luxurious facilities, sports programs, and so forth. Then they pay execs crazy salaries while leaving the actual instructors in the dust: "Aud…

The UC system has a budget of ~$35 billion, an endowment of ~$21 billion, ~225k staff, and ~300k students.

I'll also remind that the UC system isn't just "education", so it's difficult to draw direct comparisons from top-line numbers in terms of staff and finances with most other universities.

They run Los Alamos (with Texas A&M + Battelle), Lawrence Berkeley, and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories, which cumulatively have a budget in the billions.

They also run 5 major medical centers, which represents ~$13bn of their revenue and a large portion of their staff as well.

----------------------

It's a massive enterprise, and if you were drawing the private-sector comparison I've seen elsewhere, it would be in the Fortune 100 in terms of revenue.

I'm not sure what the "right" number is for that job, but it does seem reasonable to think the top couple roles in that enterprise ought to command some sort of high 6-figure salary if you want to get executives of an appropriate caliber to do that job.

----------------------

Some of the lines in that article, like:

> University of California’s executive vice president and chief financial officer is paid $412,000, while an executive doing a comparable job with the California State University system makes $341,000.

Seem ridiculous, given that CSU has a budget 1/6th the size to manage. If anything, one would think the difference in salaries ought to be far larger given the vastly different scope and complexity of the two entities.

-----------------

I'm sure there's plenty of waste and plenty of reform that could be needed, but I'm not exactly convinced on the basis of these claims.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#247

Post by azhenley »

humanistbot wrote: post #78
game_the0ry wrote: post #29

A couple of years ago, I was looking into MOOCs for tech education, Udacity's nano degree in particular. I remember stumbling across a video on Youtube where some Udacity folks were discussing the merits of online education with college professors and admins. What stood out to me was how vehemently the college folks were against online education. They were visibly livid - there was no way substituting a live class ro…

Except "embracing" is definitely not the right word. Very few professors I know are happy about this whole situation. Universities are begrudgingly accepting the fact that they can't have in-person classes, so they have to turn to online alternatives. Tuition can't be changed because the few costs that are being saved (facilities still need maintenance) are offset by the massive losses in revenue from student housing…

> Very few professors I know are happy about this whole situation.

Right. As a professor, I'm not embracing this at all. We all hate the situation and don't really know what the best thing to do is.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#248

Post by Domenic_S »

volkl48 wrote: post #246
Domenic_S wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Making money off housing will disproportionately affect students of differing income backgrounds Having trouble parsing this. What do you mean? IMO the problem is that many colleges are not focused on education to begin with. They compete with each other by building the most luxurious facilities, sports programs, and so forth. Then they pay execs crazy salaries while leaving the actual instructors in the dust: "Aud…

The UC system has a budget of ~$35 billion, an endowment of ~$21 billion, ~225k staff, and ~300k students. I'll also remind that the UC system isn't just "education", so it's difficult to draw direct comparisons from top-line numbers in terms of staff and finances with most other universities. They run Los Alamos (with Texas A&M + Battelle), Lawrence Berkeley, and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories, which cumul…

I'm just pointing out the incongruence between a massive enterprise... Fortune 100 in terms of revenue and we don't invest enough in education.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#249

Post by graeme »

save_ferris wrote: post #191
kumarvvr wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of apps that provide the zen mode. However all of them are only as effective as the person's will to use them. In my view, Extreme cases of Phone / Internet addiction can only be solved by physically removing the user from the device. Like you do for drugs and alcohol. I am thoroughly convinced any other method will not be useful. Of course, I base these thoughts solely on my experience and I have bee…

> I found zen modes to be not really effective, as they shut off everything and ultimately you end up removing them for one reason or the other. I agree, which is why I argue that it should be an OS concern, not an application concern. Screen time in iOS provides some of this functionality, but it’s still not powerful enough to restrict access to certain sites, and there are ways to get around the parental control mo…

> I would pay good money for a solid iOS screen time app that allows me to set profiles for work time, free time, personal focus time, etc. that only provides access to apps I truly need in a given moment and cannot be worked around. That would be such a game changer

Does having someone else control the password work? I’ve also been wanting to find a solution for this on ios devices. Screen time is weak when you have the password.

The downtime mode in safari also trains you to use it, as you literally can’t whitelist a website from screentime, so you have to bypass.

Re: Online classes are not worth cost of full tuition

#250

Post by albatross »

Domenic_S wrote: post #186
albatross wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like an educational instituion relying on income from real estate properties points to the greater issue here: General lack of funding for education. Making money off housing will disproportionately affect students of differing income backgrounds, so this is not the same as moving that cost to tuition fees. Schools shouldn't have to run themselves like a traditional business, yet that is exactly the model mo…

> Making money off housing will disproportionately affect students of differing income backgrounds Having trouble parsing this. What do you mean? IMO the problem is that many colleges are not focused on education to begin with. They compete with each other by building the most luxurious facilities, sports programs, and so forth. Then they pay execs crazy salaries while leaving the actual instructors in the dust: "Aud…

Made the following assumptions about rough classes income brackets:

- Those at the low end, eligible for financial aid. May be eligible for complete housing/tuition financial aid, but likely to leave school with some amount of debt

- Those in the middle, above meaningful thresholds for financial aid. Perhaps family pays for some tuition/housing, but student is saddled with some amount of debt (full cost of tuition/housing or some fraction depending on family contribution)

- Students in the highest tier have education and housing covered by family or another source. No student loans after graduation.

My issue here is that graduate in the first two categories have less freedom to pursue their career goals compared to a student unburdened by debt. Paying off student loans becomes a driving factor for decisions made after graduation.

Agree that sports and similar are likely unnecessary money sinks, but I don't know whether in some cases these actually bring in more money than they cost (via donations, reputation, or otherwise), but I doubt it.

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