Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 217 posts

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#131

Post by koheripbal »

LurkersWillLurk wrote: post #62
whatthesmack wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts exactly. When they’re being violent and destroying things, does it really come as a surprise that they’re getting arrested?

This isn't about whether or not they get arrested. This is about certain ground rules and principles that the government must always uphold, even against unprincipled opponents. Federal law enforcement officers, dressed in camo gear and without any identifying insignia, arresting and covering the faces of alleged rioters and stuffing them into unmarked vehicles and taking them God-knows-where is absolutely unacceptab…

The uniforms in the videos clearly say "POLICE" on them. According to the people released, they were read their Miranda rights - and who cares that they are dressed in camo and using unmarked cars?

As long as the suspect is put before a judge, I don't see the issue.

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#133

Post by koheripbal »

Kednicma wrote: post #127
Google234 wrote: post #17

Maybe these Portlanders should stop trying to burn down the federal courthouse.

How would they do it? Heck, how would you do it? This isn't idle banter, nor am I trolling for a ban or an FBI watchlist. The federal courthouse building [0] is one of several stone buildings downtown, built out of massive blocks of stone on the outside, with a core of steel and concrete. This building is basically a block-sized stone. I've been inside it a few times. I would not characterize it as flammable in the s…

The exterior walls are stone - the entire interior and roof are wood, as well as most the interior walls, floors, ceilings, and furniture/carpeting.

It is absolutely flammable.

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#134

Post by throwaway_USD »

krapp wrote: post #122
throwaway_USD wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its not just so much about "allowing" these acts because they are happening to "the other side", but just like most people who talk a big game when push came to shove they found themselves shitting their pants and realizing their worst fears about the government came true and their worst fears about themselves that they are all talk and it was easy to scream give me freedom or give me death until the armed gove…

It seems to be about both. You can find plenty of comments from gun advocates in this thread claiming that these protestors deserve what they get because they're probably anti-gun anyway.

Yeah but you don't know if the posters aren't just trolling, and even if legit gun advocates you can't really expect them to come out and say this is what I always feared and never realized I was just talking shit about what I would do if this happened and surprised to learn I am just a coward that is scared of the government.

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#135

Post by koheripbal »

GaryNumanVevo wrote: post #103
reaperducer wrote: post #93

I see a lot of comments on HN, and elsewhere along the lines of "America is so terrible! Look how the police treat their own citizens!" The difference between the United States and many (most?) other countries is in the article's title: The word "sue." In America, aggrieved citizens have the right to correct their government. It's not always easy. It's rarely quick. But it can be done, and it has been done hundreds o…

Do you think they would be protesting still if there was an easier way to petition the government to make actual changes? Of course not. No one wants to potentially risk arrest and or be seriously injured in the political process. What we're seeing is the last resort of people organizing against a broken political system.

No. These (mostly teenagers) want change that most people don't want. That is why the process doesn't work for them - because they are the minority opinion. So that's why they resort to violence.

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#136

Post by gshulegaard »

asguy wrote: post #121
gshulegaard wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm a local, that lives within a 5 block radius of where this has been going on for weeks Neat, I also live 5 blocks away from the Edith Green - Wendell Wyatt Federal Building. And what I said is that there is violence going on and PPD has been trying to walk the line of declaring unlawful gatherings while respecting freedom of assembly for the majority who are non-violent. I am fine with Federal agents defending F…

That's also neat, but I'm responding to you not calling them riots. Stay on target.

You offered your proximal living location as a claim to credibility. I offered my own proximity as an equal claim to credibility. And I did stay on target, let me re-quote myself:

> And what I said is that there is violence going on and PPD has been trying to walk the line of declaring unlawful gatherings while respecting freedom of assembly for the majority who are non-violent.

Since it seems like it wasn't clear let me try to elucidate. There IS violence going on that is not acceptable. But there are ALSO peaceful protests occurring. It is my perspective that the MAJORITY of participants are not violent, but this is not an excuse for the violent behavior of the minority.

It's not accurate to broadly classify all the protests as riots. It's also not accurate to call all protest participants rioters. Doing so is a gross simplification; as gross a simplification as those trying to say these are just peaceful protests.

Orthogonal to this unfortunate line the PPD has been forced to walk for an extended time, Federal agents should not be doing anything other than securing Federal property. To again quote myself:

> I am fine with Federal agents defending Federal property; I am not ok with Federal agents using unmarked vans to leave Federal property and snatch suspects.

So rather than resort to a false adhominem (claim that I didn't stay on target), perhaps you could instead forward the conversation.

Although, perhaps it is best we politely leave things as they are since I think enough has been said. But if you think there are things I should be made aware of or still have something to add, I welcome further civil discourse.

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#137

Post by koheripbal »

pmoriarty wrote: post #112

Why isn't Oregon law enforcement treating this as they do any other kidnappings: by finding and arresting the kidnappers, and freeing the victims? The people who ordered the kidnappings could also be rounded up on charges of conspiracy.

Because the uniforms clearly say "POLICE" on them.

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#138

Post by mindslight »

throwaway_USD wrote: post #51
gguevaraa wrote: post #4

Any lawyers or people familiar with law want to chime in on how this will turn out?

The States should prevail, because under the Constitution the Federal Government does not have police powers and under the 10th Amendment police powers are reserved for the states. Now the limit on the Federal government police powers has eroded slowly (like all limitations on the federal governments power under the constitution), so you could point to the FBI, secret service, ICE/CBP...but if the Federal Government…

Taking a guess, the reason they're kidnapping many people just to release them without charges is because they're fishing for people with out of state IDs to strengthen the claim of federal jurisdiction. The lack of arrest paperwork fits with this - if they kept a paper trail of all their plainly unlawful attempts, it would risk upsetting whatever narrative they use to charge the unlucky ones.

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#139

Post by krapp »

koheripbal wrote: post #137
pmoriarty wrote: post #112

Why isn't Oregon law enforcement treating this as they do any other kidnappings: by finding and arresting the kidnappers, and freeing the victims? The people who ordered the kidnappings could also be rounded up on charges of conspiracy.

Because the uniforms clearly say "POLICE" on them.

> Because the uniforms clearly say "POLICE" on them.

You keep pointing that out as if it actually means something.

Re: Oregon, Journalists Sue U.S. over Portland Arrests, Violence

#140

Post by beervirus »

throwaway_USD wrote: post #130
beervirus wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the plenary “police power” you’re thinking of, and it has a lot more to do with the constitutionality of legislation than with actual police work. It doesn’t mean that federal officers can never engage in police-like activities. See, e.g., the FBI.

We have seen federal agents acting as police and detaining and arresting individuals on the streets over objections from the Governor and Mayor. If you are going to support these acts: 1. Cite any legal precedent where Federal government has policed and made arrests over state/local government objections? 2. Identify the Federal Criminal Statute any of the suspects violated authorizing these "arrests"? (presumably ev…

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act_of_1807

2. Attempting to burn down the federal courthouse would probably violate federal law, one would think.

3. You’re just speculating. There’s no reason to think the arrestees aren’t being mirandized and given access to counsel.

Post reply on HN