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Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

latimes.com

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Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#261

Post by 65536 »

dang wrote: post #170
65536 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they convince themselves that anyone who is struggling is struggling because of being lazy and not working hard enough. That country could use a good dose of compassion for their fellow humans. But instead they prefer to dehumanize others, and regard others as little more than wild animals.

If you post nationalistic flamebait like this, or other flamebait this egregious, to HN again, we will ban you. Also, please don't routinely create accounts. This is also in the site guidelines. You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind o…

Sorry, I didn’t mean to be nationalistic, I am just frustrated with the world.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#262

Post by bendercrit »

dragonwriter wrote: post #252
eric4smith wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically m…

> Gender is not a social construct. Yes, it is. > Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone No, that's reproductive function. Which is closely related to (but different from) biological sex, and not particularly closely related to gender. > What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented No, gender presentation (and gender identity, which is related to but different from prese…

That's a decent, if slightly confused, defense/description of the view of gender and sex prescribed by Critical Gender Theory, however, despite its academic sounding terminology and many PhDs, critical gender theory remains unscientific hokem.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#263

Post by hoseja »

lowdose wrote: post #12

A woman that uses the pill as birth control consumes 0.00365 gram of estrogen a year. At a consumption price of the pill for $300 a gram of estradiol is thus worth $82,191.79. Compare that to $44 for a gram of gold and you wonder if big Pharma is ready for disruption?

Basic generic pharmaceuticals should be manufactured by the state, in a non-profit fashion.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#264

Post by qtplatypus »

legostormtroopr wrote: post #260
floatingatoll wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hermaphrodites invalidate this argument.

This invalidates the argument as much as people with Down Syndrome invalidate the statement "people have 42 chromosomes". Hermaphrodism is a genetic abnormality, not a normal state of being.

1.7% of the population are intersex. 2% of the population are blond.

Are blonds genetic abnormalities? Can I say “No people have blonde hair” and dismiss all the blonds?

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#266

Post by floatingatoll »

pgcj_poster wrote: post #164
floatingatoll wrote: post #116

This doctor must lose their medical license for life. At best they are wildly incompetent, at worst they are maliciously inflicting harm upon a teen for personal or political reasons. Giving estrogen to men usually causes irreversible sterility for life . The doctor would have known this. The pharmacist would have known this. That they chose to proceed with the risk of sterilizing a boy without notifying his parents…

> men pursuing a change in gender are expected to sign their name or initial in the box at least ten times in a row in order to receive their prescription This is not true, at least not anywhere I've gotten Estradiol. Also, while I'm sure you intended to be respectful with your comment, most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are c…

I consciously chose "men" both to parallel the construction of the headline "Boy", with the specific intention of having the sentence hit home for those HN readers who see themselves as "men", while quietly tapping into a certain sexist bias ^1 I've observed in both American medical practices.

Under normal circumstances, I would agree with your point, and I would likely have selected either "transwomen" or "bio-males" in this scenario. Both are exclusionary for various reasons ^2^3, and when making my selection I came to realize that all possible phrases I could use here would result in some sort of HN reply thread about the word or phrase chosen.

Technically, the most correct phrasing for the sentiment I was expressing clocks in at 26 words: "People seeking estradiol treatment for body dysphoria who are perceived as 'men' by their prescribing doctor, regardless of their self-identified gender or their physical sex characteristics". However, that itself would have resulted in a reply thread about shorter ways I could have expressed that, and encouraged a discussion about weakening the accuracy of transgender representation for the convenience of others. That would do more harm than good to transgender acceptance at this point in time than I could accept.

In the end, I considered it most productive for the guaranteed-to-occur HN tangent about my choice of phrasing here to focus on how the word "men" in transgender treatment contexts is insufficiently representative, rather than to focus on how the most-correct phrase is overly representative.

In review of the replies, I am content with the results of my choice. Many users are realizing that there is no simple wording to express this concept, and that every possible choice has issues. It will slightly improve empathy and understanding of transgender representation issues. I feel this choice of wording has been successful.

^1 Doctors are more likely to seek informed consent for procedures affecting reproductive systems (including E2/T dosing) from those they perceive as "men", regardless of the person's actual 'sex' or self-identified gender, especially when the side effects would affect virility in a fertile male.

^2 Genders that are not "women" are permitted to treat body dysphoria by increasing their estradiol levels, too.

^3 Short for "biological males", which excludes people who are not simple 'XY males', such as hermaphrodites, that for whatever reason choose to treat body dysphoria with estradiol.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#267

Post by ndosnfiwjaijx »

qtplatypus wrote: post #264
legostormtroopr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This invalidates the argument as much as people with Down Syndrome invalidate the statement "people have 42 chromosomes". Hermaphrodism is a genetic abnormality, not a normal state of being.

1.7% of the population are intersex. 2% of the population are blond. Are blonds genetic abnormalities? Can I say “No people have blonde hair” and dismiss all the blonds?

In Northern Europe, blonde hair is very common.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#268

Post by tsimionescu »

arkis22 wrote: post #257
tsimionescu wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans women are offered estrogen, of course. Neither cis nor trans men are normally prescribed estrogen.

what is your point, why would you give estrogen to a straight male or a born female who identifies as male?

Aplogies, I assumed you were calling trans women starting estrogen therapy 'men'.

The whole thread started because the OP was using the word 'men' to refer to people who are just starting estrogen therapy specifically, not hormone-replacement therapy in general. The person you initially replied to was pointing out that trans women prefer to be called (trans) women at that point, not 'men seeking a gender change'.

You seem to have assumed that they were putting trans men at a disadvantage, but the discussion was never about trans men. It was always about the proper terms to use for someone who is seeking estrogen, whether they should be talked about as 'men seeking to change their gender' or 'women seeking to align their sex with their gender'.

Unfortunately, from your earlier reply, I assumed that you were insisting on the use of 'men' in this case, and I wanted to point out why I believe 'trans women' is more correct. I realize I was wrong in my assumption.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#269

Post by floatingatoll »

arkis22 wrote: post #257
tsimionescu wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans women are offered estrogen, of course. Neither cis nor trans men are normally prescribed estrogen.

what is your point, why would you give estrogen to a straight male or a born female who identifies as male?

In people who are not seeking estradiol treatment for body dysphoria, prescribing estradiol can still be a viable treatment for issues other than body dysphoria where, due to genetic or other issues, raising their circulating estradiol (E2) blood levels results in a medically positive outcome. In one paper on this topic, two such medical conditions are hypogonadism and prostate cancer:

https://eje.bioscientifica.com/downloadpdf/journals/eje/181/...

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#270

Post by qtplatypus »

bendercrit wrote: post #262
dragonwriter wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gender is not a social construct. Yes, it is. > Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone No, that's reproductive function. Which is closely related to (but different from) biological sex, and not particularly closely related to gender. > What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented No, gender presentation (and gender identity, which is related to but different from prese…

That's a decent, if slightly confused, defense/description of the view of gender and sex prescribed by Critical Gender Theory, however, despite its academic sounding terminology and many PhDs, critical gender theory remains unscientific hokem.

What dragonwriter is writing isn't Critical Gender Theory. In critical gender theory the idea that there exists a gender identity that is independent of society does not exist. See https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/...

As to classifying what dragonwriter has written as hokem people would find it more convening if you gave an actual argument.

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