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Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

latimes.com

231–240 of 340 posts

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#231
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically m…

So post-menopausal people are genderless? (If you say "but they were women, so we define them as continuing to be women," then I"m going to ask you about congenital azoospermia.)

Post-menopausal women still have internal organs which indicate their sex.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#232
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How should one phrase that sentence without it becoming completely confusing? Would it be offensive to say "a person with an x and y chromosome"? Even though gender is only a social construct... for some reason, taking estrogen will have totally different effects on a person, depending on that gender.

Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically m…

This man is stating a tautology and is yet being downvoted as it hurts peoples feelings. This is absurd, I thought that hn was better than this. Sense of entitlement and self delusion is simply out of control, and I mostly blame the modern college system that has failed the latest generations of young men so badly that they cannot function in reality. They are slaves to perceptions and marketing while proclaiming and screaming they are not. Truly, twisted times we live in.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#233
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men pursuing a change in gender are expected to sign their name or initial in the box at least ten times in a row in order to receive their prescription This is not true, at least not anywhere I've gotten Estradiol. Also, while I'm sure you intended to be respectful with your comment, most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are c…

>>most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are changing their gender. I am assuming you have some sort of source showing that this person has the desire to transition? If not I am unclear why this fact matters in the context of this story of what appears to be a doctor forcing medication on a patient against both their and their gua…

The higher-order reason that it's relevant is that there's something of a moral panic going on about medical therapy for transgender youth. While this particular case (assuming that the news story is accurate, of course) seems like an entirely unjustified prescription that's also entirely irrelevant to any medical gender transition, there is absolutely a push to try to get doctors to be unable to prescribe estrogen or testosterone for children under any circumstances, and most of the people pushing this seem to have trouble using standard/well-accepted terms for transgender people. So, it's a reason to take the claim about estrogen's side effects with a grain of salt, in much the same way that you'd be at least slightly skeptical of claims about Linux from someone who insists on spelling it "LINUX" - it's a sign that they might be getting their information, in turn, from an unreliable source.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#234
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How should one phrase that sentence without it becoming completely confusing? Would it be offensive to say "a person with an x and y chromosome"? Even though gender is only a social construct... for some reason, taking estrogen will have totally different effects on a person, depending on that gender.

Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically m…

The distinction you're reaching for is usually called "sex". Gender is the socially constructed presentation of that.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always going to be confusing but I believe "transgender woman" is unambiguously someone assigned male gender at birth who identifies as a woman.

What if a biological male is assigned female gender at birth? Would they be transgender, or just female?

This is a bit off-topic, but "at birth" is a seriously wrong phrasing - they were assigned that phenotypical gender well before birth.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#236
post #177

In the US, the criminal justice system is not concerned primarily with reforming criminals or deterring future crimes. It’s concerned mostly with making the lives of people convicted or accused of crimes (many of whom are innocent or otherwise had extenuating circumstances) absolutely miserable, retribution taken to the extreme (tangentially, I’m not against retribution in principle, but don’t think it should always…

Retribution should not be a part of any justice system. As retribution is not justice. Restitution, Rehabilitation and isolation should be the 3 goals of a true justice system. Victims should have a path to restitution when possible (some crimes this is not) Criminals should have a path to rehabilitation when possible (some crimes this is not) For when the other 2 fail, Isolation is the final step, isolation means we…

You have made a series of claims, but not given any reasons to back them up. What theory of ethics/justice are you invoking, when you claim that retribution/deterrence is unethical and should not be a goal of our justice system. If a billionaire is found guilty of pedophilia, and offers to build for himself a lifetime "prison" that is really a 5-star resort, should he be allowed to do so? According to your argument, the answer is yes, as long as he is equally isolated.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#237
post #228
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving someone the wrong hormones is one way to induce gender dysphoria in non-trans people, so suicide rate there should be similar to that of trans people with unmanaged gender dysphoria. Suicide rates among people who transition are generally correlated with minority stress [1,2], not transition itself: "The myth that transition leads to SITBs continues to be used to deny transgender health care access and legisla…

Probably worse. It's not just going through dysphoria, it's having it forced upon you via coercion.

Coercion is also how society forces trans people to pretend to be the wrong gender.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#238
post #162
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have the opposite here (Otago, Aotearoa). I friend and neighbour of mine, on completing their nurses training, went to work at the local prison. The medical care they dispensed there was far above what the prisoners received out side. And we have a good general medical system. The guards may well have been sadistic when away from medical personnel, I cannot say. There are all sorts of problems of all sorts of diff…

> that I despair at the reports I keep getting from the USA. ARe things realy getting that bad? The US press is pretty good at finding the bad reports. So count them - then count the population, and realize that, while even 1 case is too many, as a percentage, this kind of horrible stuff is very rare.

Indeed. There was a pediatric cardiac surgeon in Winnipeg whose incompetence lead to the deaths of 12 children.[1] It got to the point that other physicians wouldn't even admit cardiac patients to keep them away from this doctor. Massive failures at every point in the system. Last I heard he's working at UCLA now.

There are bad actors everywhere. We don't condemn the Canadian healthcare system because of people like this guy.

[1]https://www.cmaj.ca/content/cmaj/159/10/1285.full.pdf

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#239
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How should one phrase that sentence without it becoming completely confusing? Would it be offensive to say "a person with an x and y chromosome"? Even though gender is only a social construct... for some reason, taking estrogen will have totally different effects on a person, depending on that gender.

Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically m…

In social science the word “gender” is used to refer to the social construction of male and female in order to distinguish it from “sex” which is the physiological makeup of ones body.

Physiological sex can be further broken down into ones Anatomical sex, ones chromosomal sex and ones hormonal sex.

However it is possible to have anatomically male genitalia and XX chromosomes as well as all other combinations. To ignore this is to ignore biology.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not factoring in labor, packaging, pharmacy profit, pharmacist wages, insurance company profit. If you think you can do it cheaper, then go for it

When Florida is importing drugs from Canada instead of buying them domestically then its pretty self-evident that it can be done for cheaper. Not sure if this is an earnest defense of the state of healthcare costs in the US but you'd have to be deluded if you think that the rampant profit-seeking in the US for healthcare is merely the cost of doing business.

Estradiol is a generic drug and generic drugs tends to be cheaper in the US than Canada[1] and the EU. The US generic drug market is incredibly competitive.

It's brand name drugs that are cheaper in other countries.

[1]https://www.who.int/intellectualproperty/events/en/R&Dpaper2...

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