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Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

latimes.com

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Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#141

Post by gruez »

worik wrote: post #101
gruez wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume you're talking about pharmacy profit and insurance company profit. "universal healthcare" just means everyone's covered. It doesn't mean everything's owned & operated by the government. That means there can still be private insurance companies and pharmacies, both making a profit.

"universal healthcare" just means everyone's covered. That is unnecessary. You know what was meant. No need to be deliberately obtuse

> No need to be deliberately obtuse

It's important, because using the wrong/imprecise terminology muddles the conversation, and allowing it to go uncorrected normalizes it. When it comes to something like politics, all this will lead to is more polarization.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#142

Post by rubber_duck »

catalogia wrote: post #137
rubber_duck wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the motivation, if it was ideologically motivated I would be outraged at the ideology that lead to it and people justifying it, just like I would be outraged at state of high school sports that lead to a coach doing this and people defending that. But I sort of agree, there is no proof this is ideological (in fact it sounds just as likely that the doctor was experimenting), the other guy is spinning it…

> (in fact it sounds just as likely that the doctor was experimenting) I can think of another prison "doctor" who's known for "experimenting" on unwilling victims. Claiming to be doing experiments, yet without any hint of scientific rigor. If the claims made in the article are true, this guy belongs in prison no matter his excuse. Whether or not an ideological motivation can be proven or ruled out is completely irrel…

I should have put "experimenting" in quotes - just saying there is no evidence this is based on gender ideology so insinuating it is also spinning this in to ideological terms.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#143

Post by ShroudedNight »

jml7c5 wrote: post #129
fphhotchips wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is worse precisely because of the reasons transphobia is bad. This poor boy has been forced - by a medical professional, no less - into a place on the gender plane that is different to the one that he identifies as. The psychological effects of that are horrifying , and the physiological effects are potentially permanent. There's nothing wrong with being trans and going through HRT so long as you do it with full…

>This poor boy has been forced - by a medical professional, no less - into a place on the gender plane that is different to the one that he identifies as. Where are you getting this intent from? I don't see anything in the article to suggest this was the doctor's goal.

It may well not have been the objective, but that was the rather unsurprising result. Depraved indifference; behaviour that can lead to criminal liability.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#144

Post by dhosek »

ralmidani wrote: post #127

In the US, the criminal justice system is not concerned primarily with reforming criminals or deterring future crimes. It’s concerned mostly with making the lives of people convicted or accused of crimes (many of whom are innocent or otherwise had extenuating circumstances) absolutely miserable, retribution taken to the extreme (tangentially, I’m not against retribution in principle, but don’t think it should always…

Coincidentally, today's Fresh Air is very much on topic. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/07/16/8914386...

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#145

Post by the_snooze »

[deleted] wrote: post #136
worik wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it possible that the USA can be so rich, and so poor at the same time? How can any body sleep at night?

[deleted]

In the pre-virus times, I'd push back against rhetoric like this.

Not anymore.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#146

Post by candiodari »

worik wrote: post #115
heavyset_go wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ARe things realy getting that bad? It's always been this bad, it's just that people who weren't given a voice now have some new means to be heard and are actually being listened to instead of having their experiences discounted and discarded.

How is it possible that the USA can be so rich, and so poor at the same time? How can any body sleep at night?

So the point is that youth protection scandals involving experimenting with medication on unwilling children are rare anywhere ? (even with the youth protection officials getting paid for it)

Ok let's check. Did youth protection do medical experiments on unwilling patients (and by that we mean that BOTH the child and the parent were not asked for permission, and very often not informed at all):

US: aside from this incident, there have been many others [3], including youth protection services specifically [5] Netherlands: yep (and the officials got paid by Janssens Pharmaceutica) [1] Belgium: yes [2] Germany/Austria: jawohl [4]

And if you consider untried psychological treatments as medical experiments as well, and they can certainly have extreme negative consequence, then we should perhaps just say that every kid in youth protection gets experimented on, as this is very close to the truth.

If you think this is the worst they did, you should not Google "aversion therapy LGBTQ youth protection". That was a psychological "treatment" for not being straight that included torture, on purpose. Note that they still treat unwilling children for not being straight. Google "Gender identity disorder treatments" for example. What any sane person would call torture is still being used (ABA, for example).

And let's not forget what ritalin, official treatment for a whole range of (often misdiagnosed) conditions given to children. It is often compared to cocaine, for good reason.

Nobody can be trusted with power over other people's children. Certainly not psychiatrists, who have a LONG history of abuse centuries old, with essentially constant scandals continuing even today.

[1] https://www.socialevraagstukken.nl/experimenten-met-psychofa... (it continued, at least, into 2016) [2] https://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/001/392/898/RUG01-0013928... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... [4] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05112-1 [5] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7736157/ns/health-aids/t/governmen...

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#147

Post by Twixes »

floatingatoll wrote: post #133
atarian wrote: post #63

It's been a while since I've done biology, but if the boy was ingesting estrogen in a pill form, doesn't that also put additional strain on the liver?

Testosterone carries a significant risk of liver damage — even if it's injected. Estrogen doesn't, ingested or otherwise.

That's interesting. Why the difference?

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#148

Post by beckyb »

lowdose wrote: post #12

A woman that uses the pill as birth control consumes 0.00365 gram of estrogen a year. At a consumption price of the pill for $300 a gram of estradiol is thus worth $82,191.79. Compare that to $44 for a gram of gold and you wonder if big Pharma is ready for disruption?

Estradiol is about $7 for 30 1mg pills, so more like $233 per gram. Source: goodrx.com / I'm a trans woman.

(edit) - and just to reflect on what happened to this child, in addition to the physical changes & social problems, this "treatment" would have surely induced gender dysphoria, which any trans person can tell you is awful as hell.

Re: Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says

#149

Post by Damorian »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #78

> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). S…

Not to defend the doctor, but common sense? Sex hormones obviously have a huge effect on behavior, and anyone who has interacted with both men and women can see these effects. I'll refer you to the following study to answer your question about "non-science based theories and treatments": https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
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