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Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

psyche.co

41–50 of 396 posts

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#41

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

Thanks for sharing. I've always been firmly grounded and positive person. And then a few years ago riding my bike down the road, I felt a immense wave of anxiety coming over me so intense that I felt like jumping off my bike and running away from myself. As an ex army special forces guy I found this particularly disturbing. And this was just the beginning. My situation continued in that general direction until I started experiencing pain in my liver area. I hoped it would go away but it didn't, so two months ago I decided to face it head on and get full tests done. Xrays, CT scans, ultrasounds, blood work. urinalysis the works. All came back clear. But I just felt it was not me... and searching my symptoms pointed to parasites. So I did a 6 day liver cleans (cant recommend this enough) followed by adjusted diet and two rounds of combantrin I'm please to be back to a very good place.

Depression and anxiety are nasty. I was surprised to learn they are symptoms of parasites. They've evolved in such a way that they can manipulate the host into craving foods that are beneficial for them (not for the host). Symptoms among others include anxiety, depression and irritability.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#42
Instead, let's end prescription advertising for medication. That's where people get all these stupid ideas in the first place.

We can write and read articles like this all day. But if Rx advertisers can create new, stupid ideas in commercials faster than we can dispel them, then there's no use.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#43
post #6

> to defeat this othering and reduce stigma, clinical practice needs to move away from biogenetic causal language This is a pretty big assertion that the piece casually drops without backing. The reasoning as to why "chemical imbalance" is a bad descriptor is apparent* from the study [0] the author cites, but there is nothing that backs up this statement, which seems to be the crux of the whole piece. *Even the study…

>This is a pretty big assertion that the piece casually drops without backing

My understanding was that the results of the author's interviews were the backing for this assertion:

>As the interviews made clear, people adopted the biogenetic account because they thought it was based in science. The interviews also show how this account undermines the kinds of introspection and self-examination that can lead to meaningful self-knowledge. >Mental health treatment needs to re-engage with the language of persons. This means suspending the detached, third-person stance toward patients, and attending to their actual experience and circumstances. And it means encouraging patients themselves to avoid this stance and draw on the normal ways that people make sense of their emotions and actions.

Or do you mean that the conclusion the author reaches, that we should be attending to people's experiences instead of using "biogenetic causal language," isn't justified by the results of the interviews?

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#44

Many depressed people are very resistant to accepting treatment. In a perfect world, people would have no hangups about scheduling an appointment with a therapist and/or trialing antidepressant medication as an adjunct to their recovery. However, in the real world many people are resistant to the idea of therapy and/or medication as it feels like admitting defeat. Or perhaps they've read cherry-picked horror stories…

It seems like anybody familiar with the history of the profession would be wise to not so easily “accept treatment.” But then again, even insiders like Jordan Peterson will “accept treatment” that nearly kills them. The hubris isn’t unique to any one branch of medicine, but consider that not very long ago shock treatment for homosexuals was the accepted treatment. That should give you pause if nothing else.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#45

Many depressed people are very resistant to accepting treatment. In a perfect world, people would have no hangups about scheduling an appointment with a therapist and/or trialing antidepressant medication as an adjunct to their recovery. However, in the real world many people are resistant to the idea of therapy and/or medication as it feels like admitting defeat. Or perhaps they've read cherry-picked horror stories…

> However, in the real world many people are resistant to the idea of therapy and/or medication as it feels like admitting defeat. Or perhaps they've read cherry-picked horror stories of bad therapists or medication side effects on the internet.

This is hugely compounded by the fact that even when people do decide to go for treatment like therapy, they discover that its painfully inaccessible. As in, if you don't have enough money to afford the 100$+ hour sessions, you feel like you completely run out of options.

There are more services trying to address this cost issue but from my experience (in Canada), they leave a lot to be desired

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#46
post #5

>She told me she welcomed the diagnosis of a neurobiological disorder, which confirmed her problem was ‘real’ – brought on by a physiological force external to her volition – and that it showed she’s not ‘just a slacker’. That is such an arbitrary distinction. As if being "just a slacker" doesn't have a number of deeper reasons behind it as well. Brains are just machines at the end of the day, every behavior is a res…

Brains are not machines like your phone is a machine or your car is a machine. They are complex systems and the result of an emergent process rather than designed systems with discrete components. The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known. Our knowledge of the brain is in fact very little. It'…

> The analogy that brains are like machines is harmful because it makes it sound like there is some operating manual and simple cause effect relationships that are known.

Why? We have complex machines and systems as well, where nobody would claim that there are only simple cause effect relationships and you only need a two-page owner's manual.

Drugs work pretty reliably. While you can't predict what exactly is going to happen when you take LSD, you can be pretty sure that something is going to happen. Why, if not because the brain reacting to some chemical?

This idea of "don't say it's a machine, you're oversimplifying it" is what's harmful in my eyes. It leads to anti-scientific positions, mysticism and fatalism. If there's nothing we can do to help, and nothing we can learn because it's so super hyper duper complex and "emergent", why bother. It's not, of course. While we don't know everything, we do know something. And we should extend our knowledge. Pretending that we can't know isn't useful.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#47

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

That's fantastic you found the right SSRI for you immediately, that's incredibly rare. I second the sentiment that when you find the one for you and everything clicks, it's a truly life-changing experience. One thing to watch out for with Prozac is diminishing sensitivity in the nether regions, that's probably the biggest reason I tried a few others and transitioned to another medication.

> That's fantastic you found the right SSRI for you immediately, that's incredibly rare.

It's not accurate to say that it's "incredibly rare". Most people can expect at least some dosage adjustments, if not a few trials of different medications.

However, most people will see some improvements from any antidepressant treatment, even if it's not full remission. Getting to full remission is the challenge that requires fine-tuning.

Practically speaking, antidepressant medication shouldn't be viewed as a one-stop solution to depression treatment. It should be used as a larger treatment regimen involving therapy (ideally professional, but even self-directed with books is helpful) and lifestyle changes to identify and address the source of the problems.

As such, even a minor boost from an antidepressant can help move a person in the right direction, even if it isn't a one-stop cure for the depression. We need to collectively get past this idea that antidepressants are an all-or-nothing cure all and start viewing them as an adjunct to getting back on your feet and staying there.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#48
Counter-example: if you’ve ever struggled with OCD or compulsive thoughts then you know the extreme emotional anguish that comes with trying to resist the impulses, that feeling of powerlessness as you feel forced to do something that you know rationally makes zero sense. In this case, recognizing the condition as a “chemical imbalance” may be comforting and a sole source of hope that things can get better.

And this is why I don’t like elitists telling me what I should or shouldn’t say.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#49
I'm not sure what to make of this piece. First:

> Psychiatric research doesn’t support the notion of simple cause and effect in mental health, instead uncovering a far more complex and indeterminate picture of vulnerabilities. There is no evidence to justify the continued promotion of one-dimensional theories such as ‘chemical imbalance’.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and believe that it's a huge problem with the mental health discourse. However, the author then goes on to say:

> Mental health treatment needs to re-engage with the language of persons. This means suspending the detached, third-person stance toward patients, and attending to their actual experience and circumstances. And it means encouraging patients themselves to avoid this stance and draw on the normal ways that people make sense of their emotions and actions.

A problem I've experienced is that "the normal ways that people make sense of their emotions and actions" do not seem to work for me. I haven't found a good description of it, but something in my sensory and cognitive feedback loop seems to be broken such that I don't get any useful sense of things in the moment and need to reverse-engineer my emotional state after the fact when it seems important to do so (NB: I don't just mean that this disconnect occurs when there's some kind of intense moment; it's pretty much constant). So I don't see how it's possible to both hold that up as the standard and also respect my "actual experience and circumstances". In other words, this sure seems like exactly the sort of one-dimensional theory of mental illness that the author decried earlier.

Re: Let’s avoid talk of ‘chemical imbalance’: it’s people in distress

#50

they struggled against the dehumanising notion that their thoughts, feelings or behaviour were mechanistically caused. Finally, a thread where I can point out my own experiences. Around four years ago, it would be fair to call me slightly crazy. It was a harmless sort of crazy, but it was quite self-destructive. I used to wake up wishing to die, genuinely, and not knowing why. All of that changed after going on Proza…

I started having disturbing, invasive thoughts a few months before the pandemic hit. I’d be watching a movie with my family after dinner then boom, I’d feel insane. It wasn’t suicidal just things like “soon you will be DEAD!” kind of stuff. Turned out it was me reacting to some of the food we were eating at home.

The GP I saw suggested Lexapro which I’ve taken before and it’s not for me. I told him the problem had a strong correlation to food; if I fasted I didn’t get these thoughts. Doctors look at you weird when you say you think asparagus is driving you mad. He just sort of ignored me, I think the fact I saw him right after the pandemic hit just made him assume I was depressed and anxious because of the lockdown.

The really crazy thing to me is that Nexium has basically made the problem go away (Prilosec worked but wasn’t quite as good) I saw a GI specialist and he showed me the low FODMAP elimination diet and suggested I eat low FODMAP foods and that has helped it the rest of the way. So crazy how much our gut can affect our mood and psychological profile.

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