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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#401
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I still don't see the ethical implications. Is universally lower taxation inherently unethical?

>Is universally lower taxation inherently unethical? When services that take care of people depend on taxes then yeah lower taxation without a backup is inherently unethical.

Seems like Ireland is doing fine, it's one of the best places to live in the world. So it is ethical then, by your argument.

By the way, in case anyone claims that the tax revenue was 'stolen' from other countries- it's not up to the Irish government to charge higher taxes in order to subsidize other countries services (be it directly or by presenting itself as more expensive tax-wise than it needs to be).

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#402
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t necessarily agree with your conclusion, but I do think it’s important to emphasize that Apple is collecting VAT across the EU and paying large quantities of money to all EU countries as a result. The amount of tax revenue generated by VAT will be an order of magnitude larger than income tax, since the former is on revenue and the latter is on profit.

Yet, VAT is not Apple's money, it's the end consumer's.

The money used to pay income taxes also was the consumer's money originally. It's really all the same thing.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#403
post #393
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like there's a sovereignty issue here. Ireland signed on to the EU and several trade agreements before that. Until it quits these it is subject to their rules. > If you negotiate a deal with the highest authority in Ireland, and they sign off on it, are you done? Any contract you sign in any country can be invalidated by a court.

> Ireland signed ... trade agreements ... is subject to their rules Sure. If your employment contract prevents you from taking other work, you may be fired if you break this. You may also have signed up to binding arbitration by some weird court. But normally the 3rd party (your weekend employer, who did not sign) cannot be penalized. That's what points out how much sovereignty has been given up by Ireland. It has si…

It is not a foreign court, it is the highest court in Ireland's legal system.

No law has been sturck down. No law has been rewritten. No law has been applied retroactively.

A deal was found to be illegal, based on the laws at the time, so was anulled (as any illegal deal would be).

This was appealed, and the court found that the facts of the case had been misinterperated (ie they're arguing about what counts as state aid, not whether state aid is illegal).

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#404
post #270

Standard Ireland stuff. They want to bring jobs to Ireland, so they create international corporate tax loopholes. My understanding is these loopholes mostly allow US tech companies to make large real profits in Europe, have them attribute to an Irish office, but then bullshit the profits away by claiming things like paying licensing fees to themselves, for their own tech, paid to a subsidiary in an even sketchier tax…

It seems to me absolutely ethical. Any country can make whatever tax laws they want to get an advantage over other countries. If the EU and its population want to ban this practice, they should reorganize the tax laws.

My view is:

- It makes sense for governments to provide healthcare, education, police, the military, welfare for the elderly/poor/disabled, basic infrastructure like electricity, water, etc. These things don't tend to work well when privatized, and humanity has advanced to the point where we have sufficient productivity/technological advances that we can (and should) provide these things for everyone

- These things are expensive, extensive taxes are required to pay for them

- I believe progressive taxation is the most reasonable way to pay for these things. The poor pay next to no taxes, and as you get wealthier, a greater percentage of that wealth gets taxed, because you get less marginal benefit from it anyways. Jeff Bezos has a net worth of ~$180 billion. Apple has a cash reserves of ~$250 billion. Take $100 billion from either of them, and there's virtually no impact on the person or corporation. Raise those same taxes from ONE MILLION middle class individuals and small business ($100,000 each), and you utterly destroy those MILLION individuals/small-businesses. Tax revenue must come from somewhere, more of it should come from the uber-wealthy

- There are many forms of taxes, but ultimately they're almost all paid by individuals and businesses. For the lower, middle, and "normal" upper classes, as well as small to reasonably large businesses, progressive taxation is a reality. Those with the ability to pay more, do pay more

- However, for the uber-wealthy individuals and businesses, those with almost unimaginable wealth, they have the power and influence to literally alter the law for their own benefit. They use this power/influence to pay near-zero tax. But the services of government still need to be paid for, so it comes from everyone else, for whom taxes are actually a big deal, instead of the insanely wealthy, who could easily afford to pay massive taxes with basically no impact, but prefer to be even more insanely wealthy

When the altering of laws to favour the uber-wealthy happens through pure corruption (like literally paying off lawmakers, behind closed doors), it's obviously unethical. When it happens through more legalized corruption, like making big donations to political candidates, then using your position of influence to change laws, I think most agree this is still unethical. It's a bit more arguable when it happens via one country enabling gaping tax evasion, for the benefit of that country, at the cost of all other countries. From my point of view, it's nearly as bad - you're helping the richest of the rich evade taxes, normal people and smaller businesses are burdened with higher tax load to make up for it, and it's done for the good of a few over the good of the many. The scale is different, one-country vs. all-other-countries, instead of few-citizens vs. all-other-citizens, or few-businesses vs. all-other-businesses, but the impact is similar. The selfishness of a few leads to tax loopholes for the richest of the rich, and everyone else pays for it.

Obviously, the fight to close tax loopholes for the uber-wealthy is a tough one - they're so powerful, and they only have to win over a handful of lawmakers to evade taxes. But it's a fight worth fighting, IMO. The status quo, where the uber-wealthy pay minimal taxes, and the tax burden falls on everyone else, is leading to excessive wealth inequality, that is only growing over time.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#406
post #270

Standard Ireland stuff. They want to bring jobs to Ireland, so they create international corporate tax loopholes. My understanding is these loopholes mostly allow US tech companies to make large real profits in Europe, have them attribute to an Irish office, but then bullshit the profits away by claiming things like paying licensing fees to themselves, for their own tech, paid to a subsidiary in an even sketchier tax…

This is such bullshit. The root cause of this is the US tax system, and the US decision to allow corporations to defer taxation on profits made abroad, with the aim of subsequently applying political pressure for a tax amnesty. The US could unilaterally fix this problem tomorrow if it wanted. Sort your own house out first.

The US and Ireland are both at fault here, both caving to the largest of mega-corps, giving them massive tax advantages, while placing all tax burdens on individuals and corporations that aren't so insanely wealthy.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What could possibly be the motivation to say no to 13bn EUR in tax revenue just to suck up to big corporations like Apple? Because if you do that they'll keep their offices open there, which employ a lot of Irish people, as well as bring in a lot of business travelers (current situation not withstanding). Keeping employment up, especially good tech employment, and the PR that goes with it, is probably worth a lot m…

What good PR is there in being know as scraping other EU countries of it’s tax dollars? Ireland would still had good tech employment as the only sizable English speaking country left in the EU.

Ireland has a low tax rate, other countries are free to lower theirs. This is not a 'race to the bottom' for the simple reason that people will vote out a government that gives too much to multinationals at the expense of the people. Low corporate taxes are extremely popular in Ireland, so it's obviously working there.

On the other hand, if you're referring to where taxation occurs, then other countries are free to change their rules to make sure taxation occurs where they want it.

Simply put, Ireland is successfully out-competing high tax, high waste countries (like most of the rest of the EU), and they are sore losers about it.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#408
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ireland signed ... trade agreements ... is subject to their rules Sure. If your employment contract prevents you from taking other work, you may be fired if you break this. You may also have signed up to binding arbitration by some weird court. But normally the 3rd party (your weekend employer, who did not sign) cannot be penalized. That's what points out how much sovereignty has been given up by Ireland. It has si…

It is not a foreign court, it is the highest court in Ireland's legal system. No law has been sturck down. No law has been rewritten. No law has been applied retroactively. A deal was found to be illegal, based on the laws at the time, so was anulled (as any illegal deal would be). This was appealed, and the court found that the facts of the case had been misinterperated (ie they're arguing about what counts as state…

> it is the highest court in Ireland's legal system.

And not just Ireland's.

And that's what I'm saying. If your legal system is united to this degree into a larger framework, then that new thing is the locus of sovereignty. It is much more than a trade deal. (That doesn't mean it's wrong, or a good idea or a bad idea. But it's a big change.)

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#409
"Eliminate the corporate income tax. Completely. If companies reinvest the money into their businesses, that's good. Don't tax companies in an effort to tax rich people."

Economists universally agree both personal and corporate income taxes should be abolished and replaced with taxes on carbon, wealth etc.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/19/157047211/six-...

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#410
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> essentially robbing the state where the profit was generated. It's a very interesting line of thinking when a company that produces new value and makes money by providing the value to the customers by voluntary transactions (and regardless their location) somehow is considered a robber of the state that produces nothing.

Doesn't the state provide roads for Amazon, and schools for the children of kids employed at the subsidiaries of Apple? I know there are a lot of details in which "state" (of all the bureaucracies) does that, but is Europe somehow exempt from that arrangement? Is your concern with the EU taking this action instead of Ireland? Isn't that going to be a race to the bottom, where "states" try to out do each other in tax…

The state doesn't provide roads and services on its own, it neither has the required qulification for building them nor posseses funds to sponsor the required effort. Firstly, it needs to take money from somewhere where a money-represented value already exists in the world and then use it to pay for the work of qualified individuals, that tend to self-organise in private entities. The work always is done and the value always is created by individuals. In a transparent world the state wouldn't be able to claim ownership of any results of the work sponsored by money taken from other private entities with a help of the "or else" incantation.
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