Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#371

Post by LudwigNagasena » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

LockAndLol wrote: post #344

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me absolutely ethical. Any country can make whatever tax laws they want to get an advantage over other countries. If the EU and its population want to ban this practice, they should reorganize the tax laws.

This is like saying a kid is murdering rabbits from the family garden in their room and since nobody said it was wrong, it's right - until the family tells them it's not. Just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's right.

I don't see how the situations are alike. Corporate taxes and tax laws in general vary wildly among countries without being condemned as a violation of human rights or animal abuse.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#372

Post by wil421 » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

myspy wrote: post #65

logicchains wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What are the benefits of a fortune 500? Who are the beneficiaries? The main ones would be investors and management, including a subset of employees. Workers are also a pretty big beneficiary: look how well workers at recent Fortune 500 entries like FAANG are paid. Even after accounting for subsidised health and education benefits the average European developer is still lucky to earn even half of what the average US…

European developers don't need to live in areas though, where they have to pay 2 million dollars for a house and they have social security and health care. This lessens your argument.

The US Bureau of Labor and Stats says the total number of Software Developers in the US is 1.4 million. Only about 475k (1/3) live in high COL states, California, Virginia, New York, and Washington.[1]

The median salary is about $106k a year which isn’t too far from €100k a year. I am not sure if these wages include non-salary comp.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151256.htm#st

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#373

Post by cosmodisk » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #38

m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

>Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. An alternative interpretation is that the high degree of taxes and regulations in Europe…

Europe isn't USA or China with very large single market. It is broken into small pieces,where each speaks different languages,have different cultural habbits,and different financial means. While I have no doubt that an average Californian does differ a bit from a Texan, ultimately they still share lots of things in common. A Romanian and Norwegian do differ much more.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#374

Post by 6AA4FD » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

nickpp wrote: post #331

zanny wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who you tax is more important than how much you tax. If you levy your tax burden entirely on the poorest aspects of society than of course its going to look bad. The US is largely socialism and profits for the corporations and free market absolutism and costs for the working poor.

And still US corporate taxes are among the highest in the world, while the working poor benefit from various tax breaks.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-corporate/many-bi...

Doesn't seem like it to me.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#375

Post by 627467 » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #219

627467 wrote: post #114

> "This case was not about how much tax we pay, but where we are required to pay it," Apple said in a statement. We have come to accept that certain tax payers (ie. corporate or well lawyered individuals) can chose where their revenue should be taxed. It think it has become obvious that this freedom distorts the spirit of taxation in most (all?) countries. I think it is fair to prevent double taxation across countrie…

> IMHO revenue should be taxed as close to the source (revenue-generating-event) as possible. What is the source of the revenue of an item sold in country A, manufactured in country B, and designed in company C? What if it was shipped into country A, but the shipper has no nexus in that country? What if it was manufactured in country B, but the designer has no nexus in that country? Add in parts made in one country,…

I know it more complex then I imply, yet, I find it odd that the relationship Apple has with it's far eastern suppliers seems to raise less problems (in their tax jurisdictions)... Why does Europe accepts an arrangement that doesn't favour itself (as a whole - since I'm sure .ie is getting a good deal, or they wouldn't do it)

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#376

Post by JoshTriplett » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

cool_dude85 wrote: post #366

ghostwriter wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> essentially robbing the state where the profit was generated. It's a very interesting line of thinking when a company that produces new value and makes money by providing the value to the customers by voluntary transactions (and regardless their location) somehow is considered a robber of the state that produces nothing.

It's a very interesting line of thinking when a government that allows a company to incorporate, protects the company's physical and intellectual property by force and with a large legal apparatus, enforces the company's contracts, trains the company's workers, is somehow considered a robber when they ask the company to pay taxes.

> allows a company to incorporate

Leaving aside cases of companies that actually have legal entities in a location (such as Apple), the comment that started this sub-thread was about companies that don't necessarily have any nexus in a location, and just provide services to people regardless of where those people are.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#377

Post by lefty2 » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

> Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this

Most people don't realise it's US tax law which allows US companies to defer paying taxes on foreign profits indefinitely. Without that law there' would be no loophole.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#378

Post by Funes- » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

Already__Taken wrote: post #369

ghostwriter wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> essentially robbing the state where the profit was generated. It's a very interesting line of thinking when a company that produces new value and makes money by providing the value to the customers by voluntary transactions (and regardless their location) somehow is considered a robber of the state that produces nothing.

Nothing is created in a vacuum, the state produced customers in good health to live long enough to buy shit, enough spare cash to afford it, and enough infrastructure to get it to them as well as educated enough to use it which is the reason that "value" exists at all.

You both formulate good arguments. Nonetheless, there are many countries where one could argue that the customers and infrastructure that make any business viable and profitable exist in spite of the state, and not because of it, rendering taxes a vile theft to benefit a very select group of people with no intention of doing any good with it. In which case, they would be impoverishing society as much as tax-evading companies.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#379

Post by josefx » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

iguy wrote: post #325

josefx wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or act as if it was paid, and paid whatever it would have paid from it to the EU budget Yeah, lets treat this as a fine and fine them $1 for every million it cost the other EU members. Lessons learned: you can get away with everything if you are just bold enough. By agreements they signed they are supposed to collect the taxes in a fair manner, so requiring them to collect the taxes they didn't seems to be the leas…

Seems like there's a sovereignty issue here. If you negotiate a deal with the highest authority in Ireland, and they sign off on it, are you done? Why do you have to care what other deals they have made with other parties? Or is nothing Ireland does binding, until someone else with real power has counter-signed it?

> Seems like there's a sovereignty issue here.

Ireland signed on to the EU and several trade agreements before that. Until it quits these it is subject to their rules.

> If you negotiate a deal with the highest authority in Ireland, and they sign off on it, are you done?

Any contract you sign in any country can be invalidated by a court.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#380

Post by filoeleven » Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

ghostwriter wrote: post #365

sideeffffect wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This problem has a rather profound solution: Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Consolidated_Corporate_... Companies should have never been taxed based on a virtual, and fundamentally nonsensical, figure as the location of their headquarters. They should be taxed based on substantial things, like (the location of) capital, labour and sales. This is what CCCTB establishes. Stat…

> essentially robbing the state where the profit was generated. It's a very interesting line of thinking when a company that produces new value and makes money by providing the value to the customers by voluntary transactions (and regardless their location) somehow is considered a robber of the state that produces nothing.

Those companies only exist at this enormous scale because of the societies (I.e. nation-states) that grew them. They rely on literal tons of state infrastructure and decades-worth of long-term state programs/planning that foster their growth, and that of the customers who buy their stuff.