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Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

bbc.com

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Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#351

Post by francilien »

jedberg wrote: post #282
INTPenis wrote: post #276

What could possibly be the motivation to say no to 13bn EUR in tax revenue just to suck up to big corporations like Apple? To me it stinks of private deals made behind closed doors. Why else would politicians not give a damn about their own country. As long as their ass is dry. I just hope the EU don't give up. I actually see hope when the EU is made up of people from all sorts of countries, that even a Danish woman…

> What could possibly be the motivation to say no to 13bn EUR in tax revenue just to suck up to big corporations like Apple? Because if you do that they'll keep their offices open there, which employ a lot of Irish people, as well as bring in a lot of business travelers (current situation not withstanding). Keeping employment up, especially good tech employment, and the PR that goes with it, is probably worth a lot m…

What good PR is there in being know as scraping other EU countries of it’s tax dollars? Ireland would still had good tech employment as the only sizable English speaking country left in the EU.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#352

Post by Jommi »

majidazimi wrote: post #117
blp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet happiness, productivity, and lifespan are all higher in Europe. Regulation is different, and in some areas less. Who are you optimizing for?

Sure. Happiest countries are in Europe with highest suicide as well. What sort of happiness is that?

When is the last time you checked your numbers?

Happiest countries don't have the highest suicide rate.

Nordic countries do have a significant portion of population living in areas where SAD is prevalent, which naturally causes increase in suicide rates. Yet they are not the highest rates.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#353

Post by nickpp »

tsimionescu wrote: post #336
nickpp wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you have to do to become one of "Them" is to buy a stock share. Never has been wealth creation more accessible than today.

Do you actually believe that? How much money will I get from 1 share? How much money would I have to invest before my fortunes actually rise with the real fortunes of any particular company?

That is the principle and it works. I know countless examples, yes, including me.

Not happy with 1 share? Save more, buy more.

Want cheaper shares? Found your own company and you’ll have infinite shares for free. You’ll have to make it successful afterwards, though, to raise each share's value up from 0. That’s what "They" did.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#354

Post by AceJohnny2 »

sideeffffect wrote: post #341
m12k wrote: post #20

Transfer pricing and tax havens are draining money out of the economies of most European countries, breaking the virtuous cycle where consumer spending also leads to salaries, taxes and more investment in the community, to keep the economy going - instead we have a shrinking middle class, as the fuel is drained from the engine. Ireland, Luxembourg and certain other countries are complicit in this. We clearly need bet…

This problem has a rather profound solution: Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Consolidated_Corporate_... Companies should have never been taxed based on a virtual, and fundamentally nonsensical, figure as the location of their headquarters. They should be taxed based on substantial things, like (the location of) capital, labour and sales. This is what CCCTB establishes. Stat…

> Sadly, there are few states that are successfully blocking this: Netherlands, Ireland, Malta, etc.

I.e the ones benefiting from the current regime, and to lose in the reformed one.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#355

Post by 1123581321 »

anoncareer0212 wrote: post #337
1123581321 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should each be able to disagree, and even consider the views of the other to have harmful consequences, and still live contentedly.

Frankly, your argument is nonsensical, if you have something past tone policing your own conclusions, it'd be helpful. Currently we're stuck at figuring out how an infinite prisoner's dilemma leads to an outcome that caps losses to one agent, and the cap somehow falls below "things we don't need to do" or around "things we have to do"

I apologize for the confusion. There are two situations.

The argument is that if human services are important enough that reducing service is unethical, and a government also provides other services that do not meet that standard, then in the event of revenue reduction, those other services should be reduced before human services. This specifically has to do with the Irish situation the link is about: corporate tax from externally derived revenue.

Additionally, human services are not necessarily best provided by governments, so in a situation where all corporate tax revenue were reduced, meaning more money to be allocated by shareholders and employees, and human services budgets were reduced commensurately, charity would make up for it, or more than make up for it. This applies to a potential case of internally-derived (internal to the EU) corporate tax revenue being generally reduced.

I realize you will disagree strongly/viscerally with both points. That’s okay.

I also stand by my belief that we can all strongly disagree and still extend goodwill to each other, even if you don’t find that attitude helpful.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#356

Post by missedthecue »

anoncareer0212 wrote: post #292
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me absolutely ethical. Any country can make whatever tax laws they want to get an advantage over other countries. If the EU and its population want to ban this practice, they should reorganize the tax laws.

The ethical problem here is the consequence of the same game theory you're citing as a solution - the next country can always cut taxes more

I don't think most people attribute a moral value to the amount of taxes you pay

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#357

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ksec wrote: post #183
solarkraft wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not hard to imagine that Apple has contributed far more than $14bn to the community, and country Even assuming that's the case (sounds far fetched to me), would that mean they now wouldn't have to pay a fair tax rate?

>pay a fair tax rate? They would, but you have to define "fair" first.

Can i also define a fair tax rare that suits my ehim? Why am i paying taxes if they dont need to?

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#358

Post by nickpp »

m12k wrote: post #209
tw04 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Globalization has broken the social contract. You've got countless companies that truly "form" in western countries with high standards of living - the founders and leaders all reside there. But then they offshore their profits to keep more for themselves, draining that western economy and creating an unsustainable funnel of money. The problem isn't taxes, the problem is founders who believe they are above the social…

The problem is exactly taxes and tax laws. These founders live in a society where if you structure your company one way, you pay 21% in corporate tax, and if you structure it another way you pay 0%, and both are legal - which one do you think they will choose? We need to make profit shifting illegal, but it currently isn't. We can't count on founders being 'ethical' enough to not play the game optimally, we need to c…

If you think the founders have an unfair advantage, why don’t you go ahead, become one and lead by example?

The world needs more founders anyway. They are the ones who created the amazing wealth we are enjoying right now, not the politicians, bureaucrats, regulators or commissioners.

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#359

Post by nodamage »

negrit wrote: post #136
nodamage wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an argument to be made that since Apple is a US company, ultimately their revenue should be taxed in the US. And ultimately that is what happened: the money Apple made outside the US was eventually taxed when they repatriated it into the US. https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-to-pay-38-billion-in-repa...

I'm pretty sure Apple has an entity in Europe therefor the money this entity makes in Europe should be taxed in Europe.

You could certainly make that argument but with a multinational company with sales in every country it's not exactly obvious where the money is "made":

Scenario A: Apple (USA) pays $200 for an assembled iPhone from their Chinese manufacturer. Then they turn around and sell the phone to Apple (Europe) for $1000. Apple (Europe) then sells the phone to a customer for $1000. Apple (USA) records a profit of $800, Apple (Europe) records a profit of $0.

Scenarion B: Apple (USA) pays $200 for an assembled iPhone from their Chinese manufacturer. Then they turn around and sell the phone to Apple (Europe) for $200. Apple (Europe) then sells the phone to a customer for $1000. Apple (USA) records a profit of $0, Apple (Europe) records a profit of $800.

In scenario A the money is "made" in the USA. In scenario B the money is "made" in Europe. Apple argues that since they are paying taxes on that money in the USA, they shouldn't have to double-pay taxes to Europe as well. Europe disagrees because they want a slice of those taxes.

(Note that no complex IP transfer schemes are involved here, it's solely a question of which entity records the difference in the retail price of the phone vs the cost of goods sold. Also note that in either case, sales tax/VAT is paid to the appropriate country.)

Re: Apple has €13bn Irish tax bill overturned

#360

Post by anonymousDan »

yashap wrote: post #270

Standard Ireland stuff. They want to bring jobs to Ireland, so they create international corporate tax loopholes. My understanding is these loopholes mostly allow US tech companies to make large real profits in Europe, have them attribute to an Irish office, but then bullshit the profits away by claiming things like paying licensing fees to themselves, for their own tech, paid to a subsidiary in an even sketchier tax…

This is such bullshit. The root cause of this is the US tax system, and the US decision to allow corporations to defer taxation on profits made abroad, with the aim of subsequently applying political pressure for a tax amnesty. The US could unilaterally fix this problem tomorrow if it wanted. Sort your own house out first.
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