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The global fertility rate is falling

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Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#811
I think a lot of people are incorrectly identifying this as a good thing.

Really, this is an unprecedented phenomenon in recorded human history.

The entire social structure of basically every country on the planet is completely unprepared for the challenges that a rapidly aging popuation will bring. The effects won't be felt for decades after the change begins, and once it starts in earnest, it will prove very difficult to reverse in any short timescale.

It will become a sort of feedback loop - fewer people have children, so the capacity for children in the next generation is reduced. Because the retiree/worker ratio has now increased, the young people there are, are unable to afford having children, and so on.

Even with massive increases in productivity, you would see economies contracting. Ending up in a deflationary trap with increasing (and unsustainable) debt.

I see these kind of statements so often:

"AI will solve this problem" - really? The World Bank development report 2019 (https://www.worldbank.org/en/publication/wdr2019) basically comes to the conclusion that "while automation displaces workers, technological innovation creates more new industries and jobs on balance". This has been the case for centuries now.

Automation causing mass unemployment always seems right around the corner, yet never comes. I'm confident that we're now in the "trough of disillusionment" when it comes to progress on AI. Things like self driving cars for example are much more complex than we had considered.

"This is good for the environment" - It might not be though; the economic issues caused by aging populations could lead countries to take exploitative short-term decisions; converting rainforests to farmland, using cheaper means of generating electricity (that also prove to be more damaging to the environment) for example.

It is generally more expensive to be green (in the environmental sense).

The competition for immigration (which seems like an inevetable outcome in this scenario) could also destabilise certain countries, with potentially dire outcomes.

"It will reduce inequality" - Japan is ahead of the curve on the whole aging population front, and the average wages there have basically stagnated for the past two decades: https://tradingeconomics.com/japan/wage-growth even as the number of employed people has stagnated/fallen: https://tradingeconomics.com/japan/employed-persons

I think the keys to this are: - Why are people having fewer children? If it's a genuine choice, then of course this is acceptable. But I think often the number of children people want to have is actually higher than the number they feel they are able to support due to economic (and other) reasons: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2016/08/27/the-empty-crib - If the retiree/worker ratio is going to increase, and life expectancy is going to increase, then how can we manage this in a way that puts minimal pressure on health and social care systems? - Are there any other ways we can prepare economically/socially for a society with an inverse population pyramid (I personally think this is a very, very difficult problem to solve, but would love to be proved wrong) - How do we manage depopulation of specific communities? This is a problem that Spain is currently experiencing (e.g. it is more economical to forcibly move people away from communities that are dying out and no longer economically viable)

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Georgia (metro suburbs and later GT in Atlanta) and moved to the Bay Area two years ago. Georgia offers a very nice quality of life at a great price, but in my opinion the Bay Area has it beat in absolute terms on just about everything except friendliness: food, weather, nature, jobs, art, culture, proximity to other interesting places (further drive but more interesting when you get there), universities…

The bay area probably beats GA if you're in the tech industry. If I were a plumber, accountant, teacher, or anyone else who isn't on the tech gravy train I wouldn't want to deal with it.

The Bay Area part of that comment is a redherring - yes it's a popular destination here on HN but there are much more financially accessible areas in California that bring 90-99% of the same climate, cultural benefits, and metropolitan amenities as SF like the San Diego, Los Angeles, and Orange counties. I think the most unique things SF has for the general population is mass transit and walkability, which is a real crapshoot in the rest of the state.

In San Diego, for example, you can buy a 2+ acre property with a decent house that's 20-40 minutes away from the beach and downtown with all the operas, sportsball, and meetups/events you could want, excellent weather year round, and still be a part of the 5th largest economy in the world, only a few hours drive from Los Angeles or short flight to SF. It's not as cheap as Georgia but it's not San Francisco: the aforementioned exurban property can be had for half a million which would also get you a decent townhouse somewhere in the suburbs of Los Angeles or Orange county. There are a lot more plumbers, teachers, accountants, out here with property than there are engineers in SF - and they receive 80%+ of the benefits of California with only 20% of the hassle.

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The techno utopian solution of allocating everyone a 20 m^2 apartment, a vr headset, and 1500 calories of soylent per day is going to be a disaster unless you also allocate everyone some future drugs to keep them sedated. I don't know if you live in California, but I think that there's sort of a reality distortion field that comes with living in a big and expensive city. Here in Georgia the rents are cheap and peop…

I grew up in Georgia (metro suburbs and later GT in Atlanta) and moved to the Bay Area two years ago. Georgia offers a very nice quality of life at a great price, but in my opinion the Bay Area has it beat in absolute terms on just about everything except friendliness: food, weather, nature, jobs, art, culture, proximity to other interesting places (further drive but more interesting when you get there), universities…

>food, weather, nature, jobs, art, culture, proximity to other interesting places (further drive but more interesting when you get there), universities, international diversity

With a little either self-starting or help from the local authorities, there's no reason another town/city/state couldn't have these unless there is such destitution it's in some kind of death spiral.

Every place has it's own niche, their own culture, and not to put the blame on you but too many people go "I'll move to a place that is already nice" and escape trying to build up where they come from or another small place.

And don't get me wrong, it would take more than an individual or a small group to turn a place around and you may be genuinely moving away from an unfixable, bad situation, but too many people I graduated with from high school/college think everyone needs to pile on the Golden Coast to make it and live an enjoyable life.

But maybe I'm curmudgeonly and a little antisocial even at 23.

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#814

The Hacker News comment section tends to be factual, rational, and logical. So - this may be out of place, but here goes. When making decisions about whether or not to have children, we operate in a state of partial information. (This is of course true of all decisions.) I would like to contribute a bit of information. I'm 66, and have three children and four grandchildren. My adult children are the most wonderful pe…

This is altogether lovely, thank you.

What follows isn't as much of a direct reply just some thoughts motivated by your post.

My wife and I met when we were in our 30s, neither of us having ever been in a serious relationship, and both of us having given up ever being married, not to mention having kids.

We're both fairly clear-eyed and long-term environmentalist types, and we know how big an impact every person brought into the western world has. We decided to have a single birth child, and then adopt a second.

We had our son, who turns 18 in a couple of months, though various circumstances caused us to not adopt.

Our wonderful son is on the autistic spectrum; he's nearly six feet, two inches tall, with a beautiful, kind spirit, but his emotional and intellectual development is several years behind.

We never made the mistake of piling up expectations on or toward him. We're fine with the strong possibility that he will likely never materially achieve in ways similar to his parents.

He is loved and he loves us. My wife and I have, on average, another 30 years in this life. If our son is living with us for the next 30 years, that's fine. It would be our honor.

He continues to grow and mature; there's at least a good chance that he could end up moving out and going his own way in some number of years.

That would also make us very happy.

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#815
post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should definitely have friends, with or without kids. But from I see around me, I get the impression that having friends is difficult. Even more so when people have to juggle kids and a career. There's a certain isolation that seems to set in. I'm sure a lot of people don't have the kids with the purpose of not being alone in old age. But I also get that there's some kind of "soft expectation", for lack o…

Even more so when people have to juggle kids and a career. I think this is mostly in the first 5-10 years, when the kids grow a bit older it should start getting easier.

Oh boy, I used to think that, and now I have teenagers and it's turned into a whole different set of problems. :-/

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#816
post #138
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very interesting, and unexpected at the surface level. Especially with all the doom and gloom we've always been fed about the world population getting out of control, consuming all the resources, polluting the planet into oblivion, etc. I was expecting to read about medical/health reasons why men and women are literally becoming less fertile, but it's not that. It sounds like it's a side effect of countries/s…

> Especially with all the doom and gloom we've always been fed Which is still true, if the billion Indians and Billion Chinese start having American lifestyles, that is just not sustainable for the planet.

I suppose that is a possibility. Declining population doesn’t necessarily guarantee declining resource usage.

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#817

The Hacker News comment section tends to be factual, rational, and logical. So - this may be out of place, but here goes. When making decisions about whether or not to have children, we operate in a state of partial information. (This is of course true of all decisions.) I would like to contribute a bit of information. I'm 66, and have three children and four grandchildren. My adult children are the most wonderful pe…

I have two daughters, in their teens, and both have said that they are not interested in having children. I'm glad that they are giving both thought and pause here, but I'm also secretly hoping that they change their minds when the time is right for them. I'd be happy with and without grandchildren, but it would be incredible to be able to give all of the love that I can when I am retired, when I have less going on i…

FWIW, teenagers are unlikely to have a solid grasp of what their actual future choices will be. I know multiple people from high school or college who originally expressed a desire to never has kids, but are now delighted to have them.

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the correlation between what you put in and what you get out is much higher. I had to give up a number of hobbies and intelectual pursuits in order to be there for my kids. Building a caring, trust-based long term relationship is hard work - sharing the same blood and providing a roof and a meal is not enough, which sadly is many people’s definition of parenting. I know I am giving up things. I know there is…

It sucks knowing that you’re the reason your parents gave up hobbies, dreams, money, travel etc that they could otherwise have had. I know, like you, parents usually think it’s worth it but it’s not nice to think that my mom would probably have been a more fun, interesting person if I didn’t exist. The admittance that your life has to change and you have to give things up so that another human can do maybe things ins…

Hum... If they decided to travel through the entire world and know every place, they would also have to give up other possible hobbies, dreams, and money.

If they decided to be world-class professionals in some are they would also have to give up other hobbies, dreams, and travel.

If they decided to know the inside-out of some hobby, they would also have to give up other hobbies, dreams, money, and travel.

Life is made of choices. They made one, what excluded a lot of others. It's a big choice, but it's not like the alternatives are completely free of constraints. Children also do not completely restrict those things, it's just one of the many restrictions that make their affordability limited, but not zero.

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#819

The Hacker News comment section tends to be factual, rational, and logical. So - this may be out of place, but here goes. When making decisions about whether or not to have children, we operate in a state of partial information. (This is of course true of all decisions.) I would like to contribute a bit of information. I'm 66, and have three children and four grandchildren. My adult children are the most wonderful pe…

I have two daughters, in their teens, and both have said that they are not interested in having children. I'm glad that they are giving both thought and pause here, but I'm also secretly hoping that they change their minds when the time is right for them. I'd be happy with and without grandchildren, but it would be incredible to be able to give all of the love that I can when I am retired, when I have less going on i…

May I suggest you consider fostering a child? Or spending more time as an educator of some sort (through teaching, mentoring, etc.)? There are definitely ways for you to give love to a younger generation that does not involve your daughters decision to have children or not.

Re: The global fertility rate is falling

#820
post #808
post #345

It is disturbing that people take for granted that this is an economic problem. This thread is full of people lamenting the fact that we could support X times as many people as we do now if we all just sacrifice Y. When I look around the world today, I think the biggest resource that is lacking is economic opportunity. Huge swathes of people are desperate, angry, and depressed, I think because there is no opportunity…

There is a lot of empty space on earth even before we start terraforming deserts or building floating cities, or colonizing other planets. So the malthusian fearmongering that we are all going to die due to lack of resources is simply false. Having X times more people doesn't lead to us sacrificing anything but to producing 2^X more art and sciense. Even for such a simple example as youtube videos, if population is r…

Plenty of space, yes, but in zones where you don't have to worry about natural disaster seasons, or ridiculous supply chain issues (I'm thinking southwest US for water)? NE is no cakewalk in the winter but we generally don't have to worry about a hurricane decimating a whole city.

As far as production, remember the automation issue as well as the fact that, well, more content is great perhaps in smaller communities, but think of the absolute firehose the Internet is and how many creatives would want to be able to sustain off of a consistent fanbase at at least an average salary. If more (or everyone) becomes a Youtuber, does that itself reduce who is watching the vids, reduces payouts because of the sheer amount of content, and lead to a scarcity? AND MORE IMPORTANTLY: Is too much of the same type of thing being created (e.g., people used to one Nicki Minaj probably think it's great to have Saweetie and Meg Thee Stallion, but what if they get their own copycats/spinoff artists? Too much of the same thing at once?) I'm assuming economically both our scenarios would adjust to views in an increase/decrease in population.

Also throwing more people at the science situation doesn't necessarily help if we aren't training quality people in the field and resort to degree factories. Think about the sheer number of papers being published nowadays. I assume it is hard for them to keep up and who knows how much more bad science (or disinformation in general) would occur then.

Please put my Malthusian fears to rest!

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