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U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

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Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning lobbying which is going to be a difficult battle for sure

“Lobbying” as the reflexive reason for all political ills is tiresome, especially considering aggressive lobbying by universities is likely what caused this reversal.

I'm pretty sure the lawsuits had more to do with it than anything else.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#82

Another example of the haphazard throw-it-against-the-wall approach of what our country has chosen to have as our national experiment. This cannot be good for either side. Do we want to live in a system where if you hadn't been paying attention to the news for 1 week, we might have kicked >100,000 people out of the country? Is this ADD-style, whoever yells the loudest, social and political system working well for any…

Banning lobbying which is going to be a difficult battle for sure

Literally no one was "lobbying" for this policy. This was a nativist reflex, designed to seize an opportunity to expel a few foreigners who would otherwise not be removable. It's very much in keeping with the anti-immigration stances the administration has taken in other areas.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#83
post #77
post #6

Excellent. The system worked this time. People challenged executive branch action through the judicial system and the executive branch backed down. But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

>The system worked this time. I view the phrase "the system worked" as a red flag indicating that things went wrong in a way they shouldn't, not a positive thing. A successful outcome doesn't necessarily indicate things are fine. A canonical example is the Space Shuttle boosters. The O-rings were supposed to block all the hot gases, but there was some gas leakage and erosion of the O-rings. Nothing bad happened and o…

It's called defense in depth. Not everything has to be all over nothing.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#84
post #6

Excellent. The system worked this time. People challenged executive branch action through the judicial system and the executive branch backed down. But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

> But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this. More importantly, the long term damage is done. The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader. Prospective future students are likely going to be ultra careful before choosing this countr…

Why are you getting downvoted?

Confidence is definitely a thing.

Most of the students probably don't appreciate this self-inflicted drama in the first place.

No one really wins here.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#85
post #27
post #7

Is this administration very incompetent, or very sadistic? If they rescinded the order, means they: 1) Didn't think through the consequences, or the legality of the order. 2) They just wanted to crate some chaos, and mess up with the foreign kids, while posturing to their base 3) Force universities to stay open in the middle of the pandemic in order to help Trump's reelection bid... (not sure how breakouts of covid i…

#2 - This was just a big distraction to get the ADD media to forget about Russian bounties on US troops.

How about we start requiring proof before we just endlessly allow unnamed sources to dictate our outrage? The Russian Bounty story has all sorts of problems.

https://fair.org/home/in-russian-bounty-story-evidence-free-...

This is a theme of the media: use unnamed sources with no ability for stories to be independently verified and then create an anti-Trump scandal over it. Over and over we go through this.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#86
post #77
post #6

Excellent. The system worked this time. People challenged executive branch action through the judicial system and the executive branch backed down. But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

>The system worked this time. I view the phrase "the system worked" as a red flag indicating that things went wrong in a way they shouldn't, not a positive thing. A successful outcome doesn't necessarily indicate things are fine. A canonical example is the Space Shuttle boosters. The O-rings were supposed to block all the hot gases, but there was some gas leakage and erosion of the O-rings. Nothing bad happened and o…

I think in this case, however, the system also worked as designed. O-rings aren’t designed to erode. The government, on the other hand, has designed power checks to prevent exactly what happened: a well meaning but ultimately idiotic decision from adversely impacting peoples’ lives in ways that weren’t initially accounted for. In no way am I giving credit to anyone here, just pointing out that the analogy doesn't quite hold.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#87

I'm not a lawyer, but how is it Harvard and MIT had standing in court for this case?

> 19. Plaintiffs have standing to bring this case. Defendants’ actions will cause an imminent, concrete, and irreparable risk to Plaintiffs’ ability to achieve their educational missions unless halted by this Court.

> 20.Plaintiffs also have standing to assert claims on behalf of their F-1 visa-holding students, who face the imminent, concrete, and irreparable risk of harm to themselves, their families, their educations, their short-term and long-term health, and their future education and employment prospects if Defendants’ actions are not halted by this Court.

[0]: https://www.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/content/sevp_fil...

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Executive branch is overpowered partially because the senate refuses to do its job. The original intent was for the senate to be slower moving and "cool" house legislation leading to slower moving governing structures. Over time, the executive branch was given additional power to "get stuff done", and we find ourselves in the situation we have today.

> the senate refuses to do its job It's not really the Senate's fault. Opposition parties almost never vote with government parties in any democratic legislature, so you shouldn't expect them to in the US. The real problem is the outdated system that is set up to (1) only allow two major parties to exist, so a European-style coalition government isn't possible, and (2) require both major parties to agree in order to…

Why outdated? Coronavirus stimulus pckage became law on 27th March in both the US and Germany (Europe’s model democracy). So it’s arguably a good thing, consensual things happen quickly, controversial things take a long time.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#89
post #43

Whether or not they know it, this administration is constantly floating out test balloons for outright evil nonsense... and I think some of it slips through simply because everyone's exhausted by it. It's going to take at least a decade to fix what they've broken at this point, and if they end up appointing just 1 more Supreme Court justice it's going to take the rest of our lives. I still see people (people I know e…

> Whether or not they know it They know exactly what they're doing. Trump plays the ignorant fool so cruel and heartless policies can be put in place efficiently, and supportive policies can be undone efficiently. I don't think Trump is a bright individual, but he is definitely accomplishing what he set out to accomplish. Most people just aren't used to a president actively undermining their own country.

> Most people just aren't used to a president actively undermining their own country.

Is that what’s happening? Is America being “undermined?” Or are there just different priorities than those you personally support? Aside from the Wuhan Virus situation, the US was doing pretty well by most objective measures.

Re: U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student visas

#90
post #48
post #25

This program was a wild success beyond Trump's wildest dreams. No one is talking about Russian Bounties on US troops. Crisis averted. He just keeps on winning!

Are you serious? To me this adds to the picture of an administration who is about to loose the forthcoming election and is acting more and more eratic. But I am not American so I cannot tell whether this is actually convincing to the broader electorate?

I'm American, and I cannot tell either.

The thing is, sitting Presidents usually get re-elected.

Last election seemed like there was a Trump-related controversy every week, and he still managed to win.

They say cats hit terminal velocity after falling only about 3 stories, so they are just as likely to survive a 10 storey fall. If Trump can get elected after dozens of questionable statements and actions, why not hundreds?

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