Live data from Hacker News

Resignation Letter

bariweiss.com

421–430 of 716 posts

Re: Resignation Letter

#421
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right, and it all boils down to this: the left is growing in the United States, and powerful people with large platforms such as Bari Weiss do not like it. Yet it's ironic because left-wing views were consistently canceled. Even being against the Iraq War in 2003 was considered treasonous for a while.

I don't remember a single example of anybody fired from their job for opposing Iraq War (I'm not talking about top politicians, of course). I don't remember anybody fired from any papers for allowing an article opposing Iraq War to be printed. I don't remember people being beaten up in the street by rampaging mobs for opposing Iraq War. Can you provide any example of that happening?

Phil Donahue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Donahue#MSNBC_program

On February 25, 2003, MSNBC canceled the show.

Soon after the show's cancellation, an internal MSNBC memo was leaked to the press stating that Donahue should be fired because he opposed the imminent U.S. invasion of Iraq and that he would be a "difficult public face for NBC in a time of war" and that his program could be “a home for the liberal anti-war agenda”.

Re: Resignation Letter

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have 1,600 journalists last year that were sent to 150 countries [1]. What other organization is doing anything like that effort to gather facts around the world? Who is doing more collective discovery (and making it accessible to the public at a price an average person can afford)? I can only think of a handful of organizations that are serious candidates (Reuters? The BBC? Wikipedia?). Weird puff pieces, drama…

> I can't take them too seriously until I see an alternative that does the work of collective discovery. There is an alternative. It is you and I. The citizen journalist will become the arbiter of truth tomorrow. And that arbitration will be decided on rationality. There will be no more credentialism and gatekeeping. That is why the traditional media companies are scared shitless.

And the citizen engineers will solve P = NP, and the citizen doctors will cure cancer, and the citizen citizen political scientists will create a perfect voting system…

Re: Resignation Letter

#423
"People were mean to me and other opinion writers who weren't fact-checked and frequently got facts wrong. I'm not considering these complaints Free Speech, but our hurt feelings mean that Free Speech was hurt.

My boss, James Bennett, solicited a piece from Tom Cotton that called for the state to take arms against protesters (protesting might called… speech?), and didn't read the piece before publishing it. The people saying he was doing a bad job are against Free Speech.

Opinion writers like me aren't fact-checked and are allowed to mouth off on Twitter, my newsroom employees _are_ fact-checked and not allowed to have opinions on Twitter. They broke the rules and used speech to say I misrepresented an internal meeting to my own ends when I thought they weren't going to talk. They still dare to have Slack emoji reactions (not speech, somehow) to tell me my ideas are bad.

Anyway, I'm on Team Free Speech and everyone else hates Free Speech."

Bari is bad, only wants speech she likes to matter. Stop boosting her.

Re: Resignation Letter

#424
post #354
post #211

The "orthodoxy" the author writes about is real. I am a skeptic and cynic by nature. In my experience "common wisdom" is usually anything but. In software and technology I've found when you eschew dogma and "best practices" you more often than not get better results. But, in 2020 you cannot question or be skeptical of the "progressive" agenda. Merely hinting that you are not fully bought in will get you labeled as a…

> But, in 2020 you cannot question or be skeptical of the "progressive" agenda. Merely hinting that you are not fully bought in will get you labeled as a racist, or even worse these days, a "Conservative". Is it really the case? Or is it a perception you have? I've become less and less liberal the past three months, for multiple reasons, and at least in my liberal bubble, i did not face any backlash.

> Is it really the case?

Pretty hard to answer that question in HN with anything other than another anecdote, but I would personally answer that question with "yes". I have seen this behavior on several online forums I am in (including HN) as well as in real-world settings.

The well-documented incidents with "non-left" speakers on college campuses is another data point. Take a look at the insanity that happened at Evergreen College, for example.

This sort of behavior is easily observed, from my point of view, in real-life and online.

Re: Resignation Letter

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely disagree. And I think Joe Rogan's podcast is the perfect example of how the market is suggesting exactly what you replied to. "Normal Americans" don't read the NYT anymore, or WSJ, or the Post, they listen to Joe Rogan on Spotify and Youtube. There's virtually no limit to who Joe will have on his show, and while he's not a remarkable interviewer, he brings the often vital opinions of his guests on all side…

Weird to see Joe Rogan here, he literally just parrots whatever his guest is saying. Used to love watching until I realized he just repeats whatever sentiment his guest is saying. He had Stefan Molyneux and Gavin McInees on, and never once challenged them on their white supremacist views.

A bit of aside admittedly but not knowing much about Molyneux I checked to see his credentials as a 'white supremacist'.

Perhaps I should I have just relied on what Twitter and countless parrot sites say about him (try a search on his name). But I didn't.

In https://www.freedomain.com/2020/07/07/what-i-believe-stefan-... I found:

"I do not believe that any race is “superior” or “inferior.”.

"Eugenics is a government program that uses force to control people’s reproductive choices and is utterly immoral."

"Naturally, I oppose all morals and laws that create unjust advantages for either men or women."

and other reasonable statements to which which vast numbers of people would assent.

https://www.freedomain.com/2020/07/07/what-i-believe-stefan-...

Are these the views of a white supremacist? Perhaps he's a secret one for all I know. If so it would be nice if we stopped using gross simplistic labels for people and simply attacked his views head on (if we wish) quoting their actual words and not attributing views to them that they don't appear to hold.

Re: Resignation Letter

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joe Rogan is pretty much Oprah for dudes. Sure he is extremely popular but I'm not sure there's a relationship between what 'normal Americans' think of journalism and the success of his podcast, other than that people for some reason keep asserting it because he on occasion has public intellectuals on his show, but so have talk show hosts for eons. The New York times these days has 6 million digital subscribers, that…

The OP you're responding to is correct that his popularity is MUCH higher than your response suggests: "In January 2015, the podcast was listened to by more than 11 million people. By October 2015, it had grown to acquire 16 million downloads a month. By April 2019, the podcast had 190 million downloads a month." That's a lot higher a number than your NYT 6 million subscribers (-1 as I just canceled in early June aft…

I did say that he was popular in my post? That's not really the point of the debate. Of course the NYT is a niche market in the sense that only a minority of people actually pay for news. Fox and talk radio probably have 20 times as many viewers/listeners, that's always been the case.

But that doesn't say anything about what the NYT has become. They have a larger audience now than they had in the past, and their status isn't just a function of size of viewership.

Pewdiepie has a hundred million subscribers or whatever, does he dwarf the New York times in terms of influence in social or political life? No. The fact that there's a new entertainment personality in mass media doesn't say anything about the state of journalism.

Re: Resignation Letter

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A majority of Americans supported the shooting of students at Kent State at the time, Americans are always thirsty for blood. That's not a compelling argument. >Some [students] were told that more students should have been killed to teach student protesters a lesson; some students were disowned by their families.

I think giving a platform to someone who is a sitting US Senator, who has an argument supported by the majority of Americans, in the supposed Newspaper of Record, isn't the craziest thing ever decided and should not have led to the editor's firing.

I thought the Editor who was fired never read the op-ed he rubber stamped. That to me, is the fireable offense, not the posting of it.

Re: Resignation Letter

#428
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling your climate change denying coworker a backwards dumb-ass is not illegal. You can of course be fired for that inappropriate behavior, but it isn't illegal. A correct statement, but one that skirts around the issue at hand: in this situation the people berating their evangelical coworker are creating a hostile workplace environment and the company is obligated to take actions to remidiate this situation. If…

A hostile work environment requires discrimination. She is not being discriminated against. Having smart and well supported opinions is part of the requirements of her job. Therefore her opinions are subject to extra scrutiny compared to the opinions of someone who is asked to do an entirely different job.

No, a hostile work environment does not require discrimination. A workplace that is entirely non-discriminatory but does nothing when one co-worker relentlessly bullies and harasses another co-worker is still a hostile workplace. You seem to be misled by the fact that anti-discrimination laws prohibit hostile workplaces, and that hostile workplaces are considered a form of discrimination, but there's no requirement that the hostility be discriminatory in nature. A co-worker harassing another co-worker without any particular discrimination is still harassment.

I can call a co-worker an idiot and a worthless human being relentlessly, all day long. That's not discriminatory in nature. I'm not referring to a protected class like gender, race, or religion. Does it follow that it isn't creating a hostile workplace?

https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment

Re: Resignation Letter

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fourth, when I hear people complain about "going against the progressive party line" or whatever, I generally hear people wanting to be some flavor of racist, sexist, transphobic, or just asshole-ish without consequence. I hear this all the time, but it seems so disingenuous. There are so many national examples that no reasonable person could consider to be any of the above: * A hispanic man was fired for accidenta…

Those are three anecdotes, and at least two of them are not as stark as described. The data scientist's timing was bad and his prior relationship with several stakeholders was already on the rocks. There are rumors that the worker who had no idea what the connotations of the ok symbol are has been re-hired. This is hardly anything compared to the armies of celebrities who signed the Harper's letter and are mostly com…

They are indeed anecdotes, as are the Harper’s letter signatories and many, many others. Anyway, the issue for the Nth time is not about “criticism” but “harassment”. It’s not a good faith argument to conflate these things when it has been stated over and over that this is about people targeting individuals’ employment status. This isn’t “criticism”.

The fact that it hasn’t stifled prominent, powerful people such as the Harper’s signatories is not evidence that cancel culture doesn’t exist or that it is a weak force; it means that less powerful people are effectively suppressed. You don’t hear about what you don’t hear about. Survivorship bias.

Re: Resignation Letter

#430

> Twitter is not on the masthead of The New York Times. But Twitter has become its ultimate editor. As the ethics and mores of that platform have become those of the paper, the paper itself has increasingly become a kind of performance space. Stories are chosen and told in a way to satisfy the narrowest of audiences, rather than to allow a curious public to read about the world and then draw their own conclusions. I…

>> Can't anyone there see past the current insanity and think? "To be inclusive, we have to get rid of her"? Don't they even hear the words coming out of their own mouths? This confuses a lot of people, but the explanation is simple: it is the Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Namely, not tolerating someone, who themselves espouse intolerant views and give voice to intolerant ex…

By my understanding, Popper didn’t mean the “paradox of tolerance” in quite the way you think. It wasn’t meant to be used preemptively. It basically meant: when some group starts resorting to actual, literal violence, actual, literal violence is justified to stop them. The classic example of this are the Nazis, who engaged in actual armed violence for about a decade before ever taking power. To this point, Bari Weiss, to my knowledge, never committed violence, never harassed coworkers, never formed an angry mob to harass coworkers—she merely stated opinions that people didn’t like. What people are doing is defining anything they strongly disagree with as “intolerance” in order to justify their own intolerance against it. The cosmic joke is on them because they are gradually radicalizing themselves into the very people the paradox of tolerance is meant to protect us from.

Here’s what Popper actually had to say:

> In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

To me, it sounds like the people Popper is describing are exactly the people who misuse his ideas to justify censorship and violence. He isn’t talking about actually becoming the side that “denounces all argument”. He’s addressing people who are focused on peaceful discourse as their mode of resolving disagreements and reminding them—some people will escalate to violence and if you are unwilling to defend yourself, your values will become extinct. None of this justifies being the first side to take up arms against someone who hasn’t done so themselves.

Post reply on HN