Resignation Letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Resignation Letter

#201

Post by Udik » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

jcstauffer wrote: post #157

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the incidents she described sound a lot like a hostile work environment to me...

Note that "hostile work environment" is a legal term related to a pattern of behavior taken to intimidate someone based on a protected trait (e.g., age, sex, religion, race, disability, etc.). Notedly, political viewpoints are not a protected trait.

Funny how a generic "toxic behaviour" is an accusation good enough against those with a different ideology, but when it's our ideology we go all legalistic.

Re: Resignation Letter

#202

Post by herbstein » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #47

jgwil2 wrote: post #14

> Americans still hunger for news that is accurate, opinions that are vital, and debate that is sincere. The market would suggest otherwise.

Completely disagree. And I think Joe Rogan's podcast is the perfect example of how the market is suggesting exactly what you replied to. "Normal Americans" don't read the NYT anymore, or WSJ, or the Post, they listen to Joe Rogan on Spotify and Youtube. There's virtually no limit to who Joe will have on his show, and while he's not a remarkable interviewer, he brings the often vital opinions of his guests on all side…

Ah yes. The valuable viewpoints and opinions of literally white supremacists like Gavin McInnes. There's being open to dialog, and then there's that.

It'd be one thing if he was able to critically oppose and examine what his guests claim. It's quite another when he seemingly adopts the opinions of whatever person that can speak three or four grammatically coherent sentences to him.

Re: Resignation Letter

#203

Post by joshuamorton » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

seneca wrote: post #117

> Instead, a new consensus has emerged in the press, but perhaps especially at this paper: that truth isn’t a process of collective discovery, but an orthodoxy already known to an enlightened few whose job is to inform everyone else. People need to understand that this is on purpose. What we are witnessing is an all out attack on Liberal values by the followers of Critical Theory. > It follows from Horkheimer's defin…

Can you elaborate on what makes critical theoy less of an underlying philosophical idea of western Civilization than whatever else it is you're referring to?

Philosophical debate didn't end in the mid 18th century. It's just that post enlightenment philosophy hasn't been taught in the west since the mid 1900s.

Re: Resignation Letter

#204

Post by berberous » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

elicash wrote: post #84

mikece wrote: post #39

"And so self-censorship has become the norm." This might be the most ironic and most dangerous effect of this "right think" regime: that the free expression and exchange of ideas is thwarted in advance because one doesn't want to deal with drama, fight, or insults that come with saying something not in lock-step with the prevailing group-think. This blunts the curiosity of the intellect and silences all true disciple…

There's little evidence this is the case. This post could be summarized in one sentence: Bari Weiss wanted people fired because they called her names and the NYT refused, so she quit and threatened legal action.

She never said she wanted people fired, but that management should tell employees to not harass other employees with ax emojis in a slack. That seems like a totally reasonable standard to implement.

Re: Resignation Letter

#205

Post by minikites » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #179

minikites wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think the entire op-ed that consists of "send in the military to slaughter tens of thousands of people protesting institutional racism" is racist?

58% of Americans supported sending in the military to stop looting and property destruction, including 37% of African Americans (a sizable minority). I would assume they wanted to prevent the city being burnt down rather than stop non-violent protests. https://www.newsweek.com/majority-americans-support-calling-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/06/02/58-o... When the protests are peaceful, you don…

A majority of Americans supported the shooting of students at Kent State at the time, Americans are always thirsty for blood. That's not a compelling argument.

>Some [students] were told that more students should have been killed to teach student protesters a lesson; some students were disowned by their families.

Re: Resignation Letter

#206

Post by jakelazaroff » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #129

jakelazaroff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this can be read as mockery: > There are terms for all of this: unlawful discrimination, hostile work environment, and constructive discharge. I’m no legal expert. But I know that this is wrong. This is what claiming victimhood looks like.

There's nothing wrong with "claiming victimhood" when one is rightly a victim. The problem is exaggerating everything to make oneself appear to be a victim, especially appeals to one's identity as a member of a historically oppressed group, to exploit the social protections we afford to bona fide victims. If Bari's claims (that she was unlawfully discriminated against, subjected to a hostile work environment, and con…

> There's nothing wrong with "claiming victimhood" when one is rightly a victim.

Agreed, I only mean it pejoratively inasmuch as the parent ("victim culture that pervades the others") did as well.

That said, she has provided no evidence in this letter, and she is appealing to her identity as a member of a historically oppressed group, so I'm curious as to why her claims of victimhood seem to be believed by people who otherwise tend toward incredulity for such things.

Re: Resignation Letter

#207

Post by slg » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #132

slg wrote: post #5

It always amazes me when the people who champion "the centrality of the free exchange of ideas to a democratic society" will also turn around and say something like their political beliefs being mocking by coworkers is "unlawful discrimination". She doesn't want free speech. She wants consequence free speech. She wants her detractors silenced by the law. What a hypocrite.

> She doesn't want free speech. She wants consequence free speech. She wants her detractors silenced by the law Not sure we read the same letter. Can you support these assertions based on the text?

I thought that was clear from my previous comment, so I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it. She used the term "unlawful discrimination". She wants this behavior to stop. She is calling this behavior out as illegal. I don't think it is a leap to think that she wants this behavior that she is against and called illegal to be stopped by the law.

Re: Resignation Letter

#208

Post by tootie » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #15

Speaking as someone who absorbs American media externally, there does seem to be a disconnect looking in. About 40% of the America seems to still support Donald Trump, under most polls. It certainly isn't true that 40% of the media supports Donald Trump. As an external viewer, it's easy to imagine no-one was ever going to vote for Donald Trump, no-one ever supported him, and no-one supports him today, but that's clea…

But what exactly is the responsibility of a newspaper in this? I don't want to delve into opinion or ideology, but I think it's objectively true that Donald Trump lies constantly. A news source based on reporting facts should not be giving credence to nonsense because a lot of people believe it. Take climate change for example. Trump and the American right like to portray it as either untrue or unimportant. They are wrong. The NY Times is not serving anyone by running climate change denial opinions. It would be pandering. There's a strong thread of COVID-19 denialism on the right as well. It's all false and misleading. Those voices pushing to reopen quickly may have a lot of followers, but the NY Times absolutely should not amplify their voices.

Re: Resignation Letter

#209

Post by AzzieElbab » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

Media institutions are basically YouTube algorithm that runs on people instead of computers. Of course you are not allowed to have a different option on anything substantial, it breaks users feed

Re: Resignation Letter

#210

Post by benlumen » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #27

> Twitter is not on the masthead of The New York Times. But Twitter has become its ultimate editor. As the ethics and mores of that platform have become those of the paper, the paper itself has increasingly become a kind of performance space. Stories are chosen and told in a way to satisfy the narrowest of audiences, rather than to allow a curious public to read about the world and then draw their own conclusions. I…

It's the same story across journalism and I wrote about this exact phenomenon in the article I submitted yesterday - journalism had to please the social media, news aggregator and SEO algorithms to stay alive. They write and say what's popular to their audience and suitable for the tech platforms - not what's right.