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Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

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Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#111

Post by Redoubts »

refurb wrote: post #92
entropea wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many around the world and in USA who would say the exact same about the USA and I'm sure China says the exact same about USA. I personally see no difference between the two except they're both fighting to be the world superpower and China is really stepping in to take that role from a USA in distress.

Hmmm... US invades Japan, turns it from a militant authoritarian system into a democracy, then gives it independence. Invades, then turns Philippines into a sovereign nation. Same with South Korea. Same with Western Europe post-WW2. Has China done that?

> Invades, then turns Philippines into a sovereign nation.

Yes, tell me more about what the US did in the Philippines.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#112

Post by mcswell »

rayiner wrote: post #52
door99 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the last 40 years, while China lifted a billion people out of poverty, what evil did they commit that is even remotely comparable to what the US did in, say, Iraq?

They lifted people out of poverty by ditching an economic system that kept those people in poverty for decades.

I assume you're referring to ditching the communist system, right? which under Mao was responsible for 20-46 million deaths from starvation (that # is from wikipedia).

Unfortunately, while they've ditched the economic part of communism, they've retained the dictatorial part, while moving towards the vision in 1984--a vision that seemed absurdly impractical when I read the book back in the 60s. But AI is now making it possible for the Chinese overloads to implement.

Yeah, Xi double-plus good. And I'm sure Winnie will increase the chocolate ration next week.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#113

Post by rayiner »

refurb wrote: post #92
entropea wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many around the world and in USA who would say the exact same about the USA and I'm sure China says the exact same about USA. I personally see no difference between the two except they're both fighting to be the world superpower and China is really stepping in to take that role from a USA in distress.

Hmmm... US invades Japan, turns it from a militant authoritarian system into a democracy, then gives it independence. Invades, then turns Philippines into a sovereign nation. Same with South Korea. Same with Western Europe post-WW2. Has China done that?

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2018/11/12/views-of-the-u...

And those places have a quite positive views of America.

> In 2018, two-thirds (67%) see the U.S. positively, up 10 percentage points from 2017.

> But the Japanese public has less esteem for America than do Filipinos (83%) and South Koreans (80%).

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#114

Post by tim58 »

coldtea wrote: post #21
chrisco255 wrote: post #3

I wish the U.S. could make a New Hong Kong territory on the west coast somewhere. I think that would give the HKers access to the Pacific and a place to rebuild. I'd love to have those brilliant entrepreneurs and engineers over here.

> I think that would give the HKers access to the Pacific and a place to rebuild. I'd love to have those brilliant entrepreneurs and engineers over here. Not many special "brilliant entrepreneurs". Just regular ole entrepreneurs taking advantage of the specific spot HK was in, and the specific relationship between Britain and China for global trade. Merely bring the same people elsewhere would accomplish no great mir…

While it wouldn't be exactly like HK, being a semi-autonomous territory of the US would allow the new goverment/economy to be in a unique position. Imagine, for example, if New-HK was allowed to set their own tariffs and taxes for goods coming into/out of their ports, while maintaining 100% free trade with the continental US.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#115

Post by esyir »

entropea wrote: post #82
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To our own citizens ? Not that, not even in Iraq.

Because it's better if USA kills innocent foreigners?

Honestly? Yes. I judge a country first and foremost by How it treats its own citizens.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#116

Post by tim58 »

tempestn wrote: post #46
cft wrote: post #8

It would be highly advantageous for the US to offer the same (assuming they even want to come here still)

Seems unlikely at the moment; the US seems very focused on doing the opposite.

While it's true the trump administration is very anti immigrant at, it is also very anti ccp.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#117

Post by Renaud »

Rapzid wrote: post #13

The Sino-British Joint Declaration was a mistake. What did they think would happen? If not now then what about in 2047?! Were they hoping that was enough time to warm the new generations to the idea of giving up their rights? There is no fixing this, but I appreciate the effort by the British. Many will not want to leave, understandably. But the threat of draining HK is an interesting sort of pressure to put on China…

Most people believe there was no choice. Most of the territory was on a lease that was expiring and would have legally returned to China in 1997, splitting the city in two.

What the Brits should have done was to push reforms for democratic governance before they left. They could have allowed a fully democratic local government that would have survived the handover and been enshrined in the Basic Law. Instead, all promises of letting HK some democratic autonomy have been broken and stepped on, leading to the current situation.

China didn't like this idea of introducing democratic reforms in HK before the handover but the Brits are still at fault. A colony is a dictature, the British had no interest in having any type of self-governance framework for HK.

In the past 10 years -until the events of last year- there was little outspoken hate for China in HK. Most people were OK with the notion of being Chinese and part of China as long as their rights and freedoms were still honoured.

China could/should have used HK as an experiment to show that its overall control didn't fear some level of local democratic process. Instead the CCP just showed the opposite: how fragile and fearful the it is of any potential dissent.

[edit: spelling]

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#118

Post by addicted »

tim58 wrote: post #106
IAmEveryone wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had no choice. Not due to military might (Gibraltar would be just as defenceless against Spanish invasion, and yet it doesn't happen). But simply because holding on to colonies became morally unsustainable. And the idea at the time was certainly that China would change in the five decades until unification. This was shortly after the end of the cold war, after all, which demonstrated that such change is possible…

> This was shortly after the end of the cold war, after all, which demonstrated that such change is possible, if not inevitable. In 1997 most people wouldn't have thought it would be possible (or at least likely) for China to both be such a powerful country and be such an authoritarian country.

China also wouldn’t have taken this step if a certain other world power hadn’t gone AWOL the last few years.

There’s a reason they decided to ratchet up the pressure on HK the last few years. They figured that in the worst case slapping a specific brand on a few hotels in a few major Chinese cities is a cheap price to pay.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#119

Post by DarthGhandi »

chrisco255 wrote: post #3

I wish the U.S. could make a New Hong Kong territory on the west coast somewhere. I think that would give the HKers access to the Pacific and a place to rebuild. I'd love to have those brilliant entrepreneurs and engineers over here.

No one wants to live in planned cities. Virtually all of them are failures. What's to stop any of them simply getting on a bus to Seattle or San Diego? Are you going to put the army around this territory?

It's quite amusing the hypothetical lengths people will go to "caring" but still straight up open about not letting foreigners into their actual country.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#120

Post by rurounijones »

eloff wrote: post #38
Rapzid wrote: post #13

The Sino-British Joint Declaration was a mistake. What did they think would happen? If not now then what about in 2047?! Were they hoping that was enough time to warm the new generations to the idea of giving up their rights? There is no fixing this, but I appreciate the effort by the British. Many will not want to leave, understandably. But the threat of draining HK is an interesting sort of pressure to put on China…

There was no alternative really, China would have just seized HK by force. Jolly good show by the Brits to standby the people of Hong Kong though with this immigration offer. Politicians rarely do the right thing instead of the self-interested thing, but you have to hand it to Johnson's government on this one.

> Jolly good show by the Brits to standby the people of Hong Kong

Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over in attracting European immigrantes due to Brexit is common sense rather than altruism.

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